The Ship Model Forum

german high seas fleet wrecks:
battleships -- konig, kronprinz wilhelm, markgraf
cruisers -- dresden, koln, karlsruhe, bremse, brummer
destroyer -- v83

other wrecks
battleships -- royal oak, vanguard
cruiser -- hampshire
hms roedean
inverlane
f2 escort vessel
gobernador bories
james barrie

Thinking about it - what ships are still at the bottom of Scapa Flow?

The have raised the CSS Hunley - and the turret from the USS Monitor. Granted the Hunley and the turret are very lightweight when compared to say the USS Houston, HMAS Sydney or the HMS Repulse and countless war wrecks/ graves in the oceans. Even if it is done with the utmost respect and honor, would the decendants of a crewman who died on the HMS Repulse want the ship raised when its a grave? Unlikely.

The golden age of preserving ships of historical importance was probably the late 1940s early 1950s. The Warspite, San Francisco, and a whole host of others should ahve been preserved. Still there are chances - only up until the mid 1990s, the USS Brooklyn (nee O'Higgins) was still around - sank under tow on the way to the breakers. Its a shame. Many US ships (destroyers mainly) are scattered all over.

Im thinking the best bet would be to build a cofferdam around a particular wreck - depending on depth, pump out water but keep enough to coat the ship, then perhaps, seal the ship with a protective coating and then raise the wreck - of course this has no thought into it, nor cost - just a hypothetical.

Arent there people still seriously talking about trying to raise Graf Spee?

Yes, Tracy,

That is the provence of us modellers, to re-create what once was. Far better than to say, raise a predreadnaught battleship would be to build a new one like the Chinese did. This could be considered the ultimate modelling feat.

In the same vein, two decades ago some US railroads wanted to offer steam train passenger service for tourists. It was more cost-effective to buy new steam locomotives from China than to restore existing ones here.

How much could be learned from raising a shot-up wreck that had lain on the sea floor for 60-90 years? Chances are it would have been heavily damaged at the time it went down. Then add the effects of the better part of a century of corrosion, rust, and marine organisms. Not to even get into the war grave issue.

It has always amazed me that sunken submarines could be raised and put back into service. And these are simple craft compared to battleships. You would think that the effects of salt water on machinery and electrical components would require a complete rebuilding of the boat's systems. The cost savings of not having to fabricate a new hull would be partly offset by the cost of recovering. Anyone who has tried to restore/repair an old car knows it is a lot easier to work with new parts, I'm sure the same holds true for ships.

there are still a couple of live torpedos out in the mud at Pearl.

My "problem" with the idea of raising the wrecks is that it's a highly romanticized and impractical notion. What's the point? If the goal is to show how "it was" I bet you could build a new one cheaper. Even if you say "it wouldn't be the same," you have to concede that the wrecks WOULDN'T BE THE SAME. So much rehabilitation and restoration would have to happen before you could let the general public anywhere near the place that I don't think it would be worth it. How are you going to retrofit access for the disabled?

All items of history turn to dust with time. At best all one could do would be to delay it a bit, and with that I think there are better things we could spend our money on if that's the goal. How about building sections of ships that are nearly identical for people to walk through, that would be staffed by re-enactors? Heck, put some of the two navies next to each other and have them shoot back and forth.

If I understand the law regarding sunken warships correctly, the scuttled ships at Scapa Flow would be the property of the British Government, owing to the fact that they are (were) located in British Territorial Waters.

The law that states that sunken warships remain the property of the government they sailed under applies only to ships sunk in International Waters.

Of course, treaties can be made to transfer control of warships sunk in territorial waters of one country to their country of origin.

Thus, the wreck of the Graf Spee would be the property of Uruguay, the Tirpitz the property of Norway, etc.

Who would own a warship wreck in International Waters if the country of origin no longer exists? For instance, who would own a ship that was sunk under the flag of the Austro-Hungarian Empire? Or the Soviet Union? Or the Confederate States of America?

I think even those of us who, like myself, favor not disturbing war graves, would not object to the removal of a sunken warship that endangers navigation or presents an environmental hazard. The point about Arizona was well made. After the Pearl Harbor attack, I'd bet there was live ammunition scattered all over the harbor floor.

Leave them in peace, I say. They're not harming anything really, and are just best left alone as a reminder of times gone past.

And war graves..best not be touched.

i'm not sure what the exact legal status of the remaining high seas fleet wrecks at scapa are. technically, they were scuttled while a state of war still existed between britain and germany (the treaty of versailles was signed several days afterward). the peace treaty itself placed severe restrictions on the size and content of germany's navy (i am not sure if the treaty awarded title of the wrecks to the victorious allies). those wrecks that did survive the mass scuttling were certainly divided up amongst the victors (for example, the bayern was beached and later awarded to britain, which used the ship for target practice). when it came to wreck salvage, the british pretty much salvaged all that they could.

as far as the remaining wrecks, they have been salvaged to whatever extent they can, due to the depth of their wrecks. most of this has been done with explosives, blowing off whatever chunks they can and bringing it to the surface. the high seas fleet wrecks have been a great source of metal for use in scientific instruments (apparently all steel created after 1945 is unusable for scientific instruments because of the presence of trace radioactivity from nuclear explosions).

point being, there might be much to bring to the surface that would be halfway presentable.

Not true. This was armistice time, not peacetime, a state of war continue to exist between Germany on one side and France and Britain on the other until 9 days after the high sea fleet was scuttled in Scapa Flow on 6/19/1919. But the fact that these ships were effectively interned in enemy water, and the fact that almost no one died as a result of sinking, makes it very hard to regard them as wargraves, legally or morally.

What would be the point?

Thanks, Dave, Martin.

There are lots of sunken warships that are not war graves. The scuttled High Seas Fleet is a prime example. True, men had died on these ships previous to their sinking, but the ships did not take any men down with them. It is a primary requirement of a grave that it contain a body.

Think also of USS Oklahoma. Sunk enroute to San Francisco while under tow. 400+ killed when it sank at Pearl, but empty when it went down the final time.

And how about those SINKEX ships?

Ah... in that case I'll keep my mouth shut.

They scuttled these ships after WWI ended though (although I know the Admiral there accused them of committing a war crime). Unless some of the sailors who were shot by the British were shot on board one of these four sunken ships, I can't see how they are technically war graves. I mean this was peace time. WWI ended the year before.

haha, it can't be a WAR grave if it's in peace now can it?

I've never heard of a ship not sunk being declared a war grave... although I admit I'm not sure what the requirements are (which probably vary depending on the country of origin).

So isn't every warship a wargrave technically if someone died on it? Even if it was a heart attack on the toilet during the year of peace and love?

Maybe not legally... but to anyone with morals they still are.

The German ships in Scapa aren't war graves though............

IIRC, her hull was in two pieces after the scuttling...that might be one of the reasons nothing came of this project.

I'm with Les - leave them be. I'd rather see some rich dude build a replica of something than try and raise a war grave from the deep.