The Ship Model Forum

Thank you for the pics. The miracle of Kodachrome, yet again. I'm trying to figure out a realistic way to weather the landing areas, thinking they would have more wear. I've got the base pretty close, given the many variables involved.
The grey for "vertical surfaces" I think can be pushed & pulled, slightly lighter and darker, when closer to completion. The decks might be more difficult to weather.
I'm guessing all the carrier photos are from Enterprise in 1941?

Flight deck would be mahogany deck stain with yellow markings.

[u]Examples:[/u]

http://images.google.com/hosted/life/286a3c259451a27d.html
http://images.google.com/hosted/life/99d275586ac9ec92.html
http://images.google.com/hosted/life/17e4406559b16bd0.html

So, she was light grey/ deck grey until the mid '41 refit?
I'm aiming for '38-'39 period when she carried biplanes and monoplanes.

She had MS-1 from the end of her refit in mid '41 (when she had the bow widened, flightdeck extended aft, and the AA upgrades) until her Oct-Nov update (which switched the 3" guns for quad 1,1's and added life rafts). Photos suggest MS-11 after that, but clear overall shots during the period are lacking, so the actual MS is unproven. Whether in sea blue or navy blue is also unresolved. This later update is why she was still on the west coast on Dec 7th.

Sara wearing MS-1

[url=https://postimg.cc/rDQRgKKz][img]https://i.postimg.cc/nLtKFmxK/Screen-Shot-2025-04-12-at-5-46-33-PM.png[/img][/url]

Yet another mystery: dead astern, on the upper hull is what appears to be two vertically arranged lights. The lenses appear dark. What are they?

Well, regarding my gun galleries on Sara, I found a pic that shows the folding section to be pierced steel. I assumed Sara and Lex would be similar, but I guess not. The entirety seems the same grey. I'm working on guns to move forward.

Tracy,

I got my "Mastic" reference from the 1941 Booklet of General Plans for Oklahoma, where it seems to correspond to where we saw it on the Idaho photo - that is, the exterior surface of the Signal Bridge platform, which includes a notation of "MASTIC DECK COVERG.". The Navigating Bridge level likewise indicates "MASTIC DECK COVER". The Main and Upper decks note "3 1/2" TEAK", but aside from that I don't see any other surfacing notation at the other exterior decks (at the interior levels of the spotting tops, there's a note of "B & P", not sure what that means). As for specific mention of linoleum, within the Captain's Cabin, Office, Etc. on the Superstructure Deck level, it notes "LINO." in just about every room, and at the Upper Deck there is a lot of reference to "D.C. LINO." "D.C. TILE" and D.C. PAINTED" with similar tags continuing down into the bowels of the ship.
From what I've seen of Booklets of General Plans, there's a lot of inconsistencies in just what information is noted - and how - from ship to ship. And from photos, it's clear that a lot of things varied from ship to ship in actual execution. Clearly, a red-brown topping that was not mahogany-stained wood was used. Whether it corresponds to "Mastic Deck Covering" and whether it was called something else on other BoGPs, I don't know.
For my modelling purposes, it feels like a decent enough excuse to justify a little more color in my early/pre-WWII USN builds when I can discern from black and white photos a definitively darker horizontal surface known not to be 1. wood planked, and 2. a color-coded turret top. To that, I expect we can confidently add 3. known pierced or expanded mental decks (localized areas on most ship types, but pretty extensive on most carriers). Those should have plenty of grip no matter what paint is used and have no need for a special coating.
Now, where exactly they used the rubber matting... even if formally prescribed, I'd bet the crew might move them from time to time. I check pictures, when I can find 'em, but I figure you can only do so much, and no model is ever entirely perfect.

Killerbeans,

Sorry to be confusing! Just trying to point out that what looks like a simply dark gray deck paint in black and white photos might actually be a bit more colorful. I just pulled up the Lexington's 1941 BoGPs, and no... unlike the Oklahoma, there's no notes of what the deck covering was (aside from the forward elevator - and just the forward elevator - which is noted as being teak.) I haven't seen anything earlier for Lexington, and the only Saratoga plans I've seen are from 1944 or 45. It's great when there is a clear answer, but a lot of times I find certain aspects of ship modeling end up as matters of interpretation of photos against, or or extrapolation from, known trends or practices - then applying them to unknown specifics to get your model finished.

- Sean F.

I deal in archival records - if I haven't found it, I don't know for sure. This is the first time I've heard of Mastic - for a while some of us have been thinking that [url=http://images.google.com/hosted/life/a0df3993f76c1b29.html]Idaho Platform[/url] was linoleum. I will now write a bunch of stuff that the conclusion is "it's your model, build it how you want to" if your eyes glaze and you want to skip it. :big_grin:

Sean linked to some photos on Navsource, here's crops from a larger copy you can look at from [url=https://catalog.archives.gov/id/178141228]NARA directly[/url]. Good shot, unfortunately not super crisp at full resolution. Enough, however, to show that there is variance in the paint on the gun galleries and island:

[attachment=3]CV-7 March 1942 Port fwd 20mm gallery.jpg[/attachment]

Port forward 20mm gallery looks like most of the gun tubs are red brown, but a hint of the catwalk forward appears deck blue.

[attachment=2]CV-7 March 1942 Starboard fwd 20mm and 5-inch gallery.jpg[/attachment]

*some* of the starboard forward 20mm gallery is red-brown but not all. Catwalks definitely aren't and the black square between the two 5" mounts is the rubber matting I mentioned earlier (I finally found the prime example of that matting that was in my head - [url=https://www.navsource.org/archives/02/020542.jpg]CV-5 Yorktown in 1937[/url] from her [url=https://www.navsource.org/archives/02/05.htm]Navsource page[/url]).

https://www.history.navy.mil/our-collections/photography/numerical-list-of-images/nara-series/80-g-k/80-G-K-14000/80-g-k-14254-uss-enterprise--cv-6-.html

[attachment=1]CV-7 March 1942 Island.jpg[/attachment]

The top of the navigation bridge looks red brown but none of the other platforms really look like they are, and the catwalk outboard of the stack itself looks like it might even have some of the rubber matting on it.

Now, as to the composition of that material ... I don't remember hearing about Mastic, but I've got a head like a stainless steel colander and that doesn't really mean anything. I post documents to my site so it's easier to find them, not because I have them memorized. So I went looking at the "Painting and Cementing" guide, which was the Navy's main booklet on paints (separate from camouflage). Paint and cementing was released generally every two years and it's a good resource to consult on Navy colors and formulas up to the start of the war (they stopped including the formulas with the outbreak of the war, but we have the exterior paint formulas from other documents)

[url=https://www.shipcamouflage.com/painting_and_cementing_chapter2.htm]Painting and Cementing, 1943 edition, Chapter 2[/url] has the following paragraph:

[quote]Decks and platforms to be covered with cement, or composition deck coverings ([b]mastic[/b] or the like) shall not be given a priming coat of paint, unless the decks during the construction period are to be left sufficiently long for corrosion to be of a serious nature, in which case they shall be painted for protective purposes as directed by the Supervisor of Shipbuilding. Before coating with cement or composition, the paint shall be removed down to bare metal.[/quote]

No formula, so I went and looked at the [url=https://books.google.com/books?id=D3ZrVkMjDVAC&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false]1937[/url] and [url=https://www.google.com/books/edition/_/igqcmwzEqbYC?hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiRpvmfwOWLAxVPDzQIHYKmPIYQ7_IDegQIFxAC]1939[/url] editions and found the same paragraph line for line on page 6 of the 1937 edition and pages 5-6 of the 1939 edition. Neither edition has "Mastic" in the Cement & compounds sections (Pages 67-68 in the 1937 edition and Page 73 in the 1939 edition)
(or the "Miscellaneous paints" sections), material specifications (page 69 in 1937 and 75 in the 1939 edition), or indexes. This certainly does not mean that the Navy didn't use such a compound - they reference it earlier in the document. However, it doesn't appear to be a compound the Navy manufactured and I have no directives I've found at the US National archives as to its use. At this point no one can really tell you authoritatively that you are wrong or right. However, as the flight deck was stained Maroon (Page 72 1939 edition) with yellow striping, I don't think the inclusion of a few red brown patches on platforms will materially add a lot (I've been hoping to add "linoleum" to a platform or two on my early 1941 Arizona build to give it some extra color) of pop, but at this point I wouldn't advise against any either.

Now, what I will say is that most pre-war carriers had a lot of pierced deck catwalks. It doesn't show up well in a lot of photos, but this underside shot of Ranger's catwalks shows it well:

[attachment=0]CV-4 Ranger Port Forward Catwalk Oct 1934.jpg[/attachment]

I've been looking for a memo I have scanned somewhere but not online wherein the Navy acknowledged the problems of painting the TOP of such a surface one color and the BOTTOM another (#20 deck gray versus #5 Standard Navy Gray) and made a directive, but I can't remember specifically what it was and when (other than pre-war). I'll keep looking for it after work hours and post info when I find it. That much to say this - I doubt they would have used a cement in such an area. Generally speaking, the pierced decking was used in the light catwalk areas between gun galleries, and I would really only expect it on Saratoga's stern catwalks and some of the island.

Possibly. Some decks had it, some didn't.
Here's the Idaho pic I mentioned (it's on the signal deck):
https://navsource.org/archives/01/042/014200a.jpg

And the Wasp:
https://www.navsource.org/archives/02/020706.jpg
Look at the light AA galleries around the flight deck edges and above the bridge; but also note the dark gray decks at the middle and aft of the conning tower, and the deck blue at most of the other catwalks and 5" gun tubs.

- Sean F.

So, my catwalks, and possibly deck around the gun sponsons would be brown? I have a decent photo in my Sara book that makes the sponson deck look grey, but the outboard portion is definetly a darker color, perhaps the brown? I'm trying to get the color sequence straight.

[quote="Tracy White"]Non-skid didn't really exist until early WWII.
Prior to that rubber and metal mats were used - I know of photos in some of my reference books but they're packed away at present and I haven't been able to find any photos online.

Airgroups were covered a bit [url=http://www.shipmodels.info/mws_forum/viewtopic.php?f=46&t=9899&p=107548&hilit=lakes#p107548]here[/url].[/quote]

Well... pre-WWII there [i]was[/i] the "mastic" (brown, textured stuff) topping that we've seen in the 1940 color Idaho photos, and which can be seen in some of the color overhead shots of the Wasp in '42.

- Sean F.

Non-skid didn't really exist until early WWII.
Prior to that rubber and metal mats were used - I know of photos in some of my reference books but they're packed away at present and I haven't been able to find any photos online.

Airgroups were covered a bit [url=http://www.shipmodels.info/mws_forum/viewtopic.php?f=46&t=9899&p=107548&hilit=lakes#p107548]here[/url].

Taking a break from PE railings. Started guns.
In looking at the island/ funnel, I'm wondering were catwalks nonskidded?(dark grey?) Island & funnel will almost be a seperate kit, prolly added last. But, I'm trying to advance construction and paint in sequence.
I'm guessing there is a narrow window with bipes and monoplanes onboard. Has this been covered?

Steve, thanks for the reply. I'm past that point, and thought of that when adding my details. This is my first 1/350 ship, and there is a lot to unpack, between those drawings, and Trumpys kit. I've reworked the pockets a few times, I'll settle for what I have at yhis point. The 5" gun galleries show the gun mounted to the hull deck, yet the outboard semi circle folds up, not sure why. I thought to stretch sprue for the 2 supports. The chain railings are another thing entirely. Hard to find good photos of this area. Also, semicircles seem different from inboard deck. Did they nonskid them, or just a trick of light?

[quote="Killerbeans"]More questions.
Do all of the boat pockets have catwalks? I is hard to tell. I have the Squadron at Sea book for reference. My thinking is to get the hull right, boats done, railings installed and paint, then attach ship to base. Flight deck can be installed at that point. Any thoughts, or suggestions?[/quote]
Yes, all of the boat pockets had catwalks. There were a lot of features in the boat pockets and no two pockets were identical. In the US Navy drawing below, the edge of the catwalks is drawn as a dashed line above the boats.
[attachment=0]Lexington CV-2 and Saratoga CV-3 Boat Pockets.jpg[/attachment]
Here is our interpretation after a careful study of available plans and photos:
[url]https://www.model-monkey.com/product-page/1-350-uss-lexington-cv-2-and-uss-saratoga-cv-3-boat-pockets-1928-1942[/url]

I recommend assembling and painting the boat pockets as subassemblies before installing them in the hull for better access to their features.

Hope this helps.

Regarding your question about the prewar guns and the forward part that folds, I'd like to be able to help with that but I'm not sure what you mean by the folding part. Are you talking about a part of the 8" turrets or the 5" guns' sponsons?

More questions.
Do all of the boat pockets have catwalks? I is hard to tell. I have the Squadron at Sea book for reference. My thinking is to get the hull right, boats done, railings installed and paint, then attach ship to base. Flight deck can be installed at that point. Any thoughts, or suggestions?

Ok, first post. New guy, done lurking, thought I'd jump in. I have a 1/350 Saratoga in progress. I'm working on gun galleries/catwalks. It seems all the "railings" are chain passed through loops on stanchions, so I think "swagged" railings are more correct. There are open top chocks for lines to pass through to the bollards inboard. Should those be at the gallery deck edge?
Also, the prewar guns are mounted to the ship, but the forward part folds? I also see the folding part is darker. I need to add the support under the foling part, but would like to get it right, if possible. I'm waterlining Sara, so want hull as complete as possible before fixing to the base. Going for a mid-30s look.

Ahoy!
I look at the setup during the Rabaul mission (November 1943)
If possible, few questions from newbie:
- Sarah had nine (9) Mk 51 Gun Director for Quad 40 mm Bofors Mount? Right?
- 20 mm Oerlikon had a Mk 14 sight (Mk 14 Gunsight was an integral part of the Mk 51 director)?

Tamiya Saratoga 1944 model, already has 21 Mk 51 Director (new configuration for more bofors)
[attachment=0]sara-1943-AA1.jpg[/attachment]

I have been keeping my eyes out for official documentation on deck markings at NARA but haven't come across anything yet (I haven't REALLY gone looking either though, mostly trying little side quests here and there). The flight deck would have been covered with 250N Blue Flight Deck stain. [url=https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:USS_Saratoga_%28CV-3%29_underway,_circa_in_1942_%2880-G-K-459%29.jpg]This photo[/url] does not appear to show any deck lines, but it is unclear when in 1942 it was taken, and at that time deck markings were to be painted with Deck Stain 251N, which matched 5-O Ocean gray and can be very hard to pick out in photos at this distance.