The Ship Model Forum

[quote="maxim"]It is a late war kit of USS [i]Cleveland[/i]. He wants to make a late-war round-bridge Cleveland painted in Measure 21.

[i]Montpelier[/i] was painted early in Measure 21, later in Measure 22 and Measure 32:
[url]https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:USS_Montpelier_(CL-57)_in_Dec_1942.jpg[/url]

[i]Santa Fe[/i] was also painted in Measure 21, at least in 1943-45:
[url]https://www.navsource.org/archives/04/060/0406013.jpg[/url]
[url]https://www.navsource.org/archives/04/060/0406006.jpg[/url]
[url]https://www.navsource.org/archives/04/060/0406007.jpg[/url]
[url]https://www.navsource.org/archives/04/060/04060.htm[/url]

Also [i]Mobile[/i] was painted Measure 21 in 1945:
[url]https://www.navsource.org/archives/04/063/0406308.jpg[/url]
[url]https://www.navsource.org/archives/04/063/0406308.jpg[/url]

Maybe, [i]Santa Fe[/i] or [i]Mobile[/i] would be a better candidate than [i]Denver[/i] or [i]Montpelier[/i]...[/quote]

These are good suggestions. Lets hope someone sell decals for these or I have to go custom. THese are execellent choices, Ill investigate the fit further.

It is a late war kit of USS [i]Cleveland[/i]. He wants to make a late-war round-bridge Cleveland painted in Measure 21.

[i]Montpelier[/i] was painted early in Measure 21, later in Measure 22 and Measure 32:
[url]https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:USS_Montpelier_(CL-57)_in_Dec_1942.jpg[/url]

[i]Santa Fe[/i] was also painted in Measure 21, at least in 1943-45:
[url]https://www.navsource.org/archives/04/060/0406013.jpg[/url]
[url]https://www.navsource.org/archives/04/060/0406006.jpg[/url]
[url]https://www.navsource.org/archives/04/060/0406007.jpg[/url]
[url]https://www.navsource.org/archives/04/060/04060.htm[/url]

Also [i]Mobile[/i] was painted Measure 21 in 1945:
[url]https://www.navsource.org/archives/04/063/0406308.jpg[/url]
[url]https://www.navsource.org/archives/04/063/0406308.jpg[/url]

Maybe, [i]Santa Fe[/i] or [i]Mobile[/i] would be a better candidate than [i]Denver[/i] or [i]Montpelier[/i]...

pascalemod, how about CL-57 USS Montpelier?

[quote="DrPR"]There were many variations of the later square bridge Clevelands. A few of these changes would be noticeable on a model. The 20 mm guns were positioned around the superstructure in different places, and directors for the smaller guns were added. Some dual 40 mm guns had radar dishes added near the end of the war. Gun tubs for 40 mm guns replaced the 20 mm guns at the stern. Check the photos for the vessel you want to model.

Another very visible difference on all Cleveland class vessels was the trash burner stack. It was on the aft smoke pipe on most ships -either on the port side or along the front edge. But one shipyard placed the pipe on the port side of the forward funnel! Again, check photos of the ship you are modelling.

All of the Cleveland class ships were top heavy (high center of gravity). As more anti-aircraft guns were added topside weight had to be removed. Some ships had only one airplane catapult.

If you are working on a large scale model (1:100 or larger) you should pay attention to the different changes each shipyard made to the original plans.

As ships were damaged severely enough to require a return to the States new modifications were added. So there was no regular schedule for modifying earlier vessels to add new features of the later ships. For example, by 1946 the USS Cleveland had the recess for the stern lights added and gun tubs for twin 40 mm guns at the stern.

For all of these reasons no single model will be accurate for any one ship through its entire career.[/quote]

I think my goal is to keep it as simple as possible, i.e. i just want an MS21 Cleveland with round bridge that I can build using a CL55 late war as a starting point. So of course I need to narrow it down, which seems to have been done to Denver CL 58. That means I need to realy figure out Denver fit, and compare it to CL55 in Very Fire and see what needs to be done. I wont go as far as conversion into square bridge stuff, etc. The raised directors was a good tip, different mast is a good tip, different and earlier Bofors fit... less Oerlikons...

If anyone know of an exact fit of Denver and details of her beyond whats on navsource that can help me narrowing things down, it would be much appreciated.

There were many variations of the later square bridge Clevelands. A few of these changes would be noticeable on a model. The 20 mm guns were positioned around the superstructure in different places, and directors for the smaller guns were added. Some dual 40 mm guns had radar dishes added near the end of the war. Gun tubs for 40 mm guns replaced the 20 mm guns at the stern. Check the photos for the vessel you want to model.

Another very visible difference on all Cleveland class vessels was the trash burner stack. It was on the aft smoke pipe on most ships -either on the port side or along the front edge. But one shipyard placed the pipe on the port side of the forward funnel! Again, check photos of the ship you are modelling.

All of the Cleveland class ships were top heavy (high center of gravity). As more anti-aircraft guns were added topside weight had to be removed. Some ships had only one airplane catapult.

If you are working on a large scale model (1:100 or larger) you should pay attention to the different changes each shipyard made to the original plans.

As ships were damaged severely enough to require a return to the States new modifications were added. So there was no regular schedule for modifying earlier vessels to add new features of the later ships. For example, by 1946 the USS Cleveland had the recess for the stern lights added and gun tubs for twin 40 mm guns at the stern.

For all of these reasons no single model will be accurate for any one ship through its entire career.

One other thing to be aware of if back-dating the Cleveland kit is the height of the MK-34 directors. When first commissioned, the MK-4 radars on the MK-37 AA directors had to be elevated to clear the sight lines for the MK-34's range finders. This was part of the reason the directors on the square bridge units were transposed, placing the MK-37's in the high positions. But when the MK-4 radar was upgraded to MK-12 on the round bridge units, the antenna was too heavy to elevate the same way, so the MK-34 directors were elevated to clear the tops of the MK-12 antennas in spite of the topweight problems this created.

[quote="maxim"]Do you know this page?
[url]https://www.shipcamouflage.com/usn_cl.htm[/url]

Plus this one?
[url]https://www.navsource.org/archives/04idx.htm[/url]

and this one:
[img]https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a6/USS_Denver_%28CL-58%29_in_a_South_Pacific_harbour%2C_circa_1943_%28NH_84397%29.jpg[/img]
[url]https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:USS_Denver_(CL-58)#/media/File:USS_Denver_(CL-58)_in_a_South_Pacific_harbour,_circa_1943_(NH_84397).jpg[/url]

[img]https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b2/USS_Denver_%28CL-58%29_enters_Havannah_harbour_%28%C3%89fat%C3%A9_Island%29_on_22_April_1943.jpg[/img]
[url]https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:USS_Denver_(CL-58)#/media/File:USS_Denver_(CL-58)_enters_Havannah_harbour_(%C3%89fat%C3%A9_Island)_on_22_April_1943.jpg[/url][/quote]

So you're trying to say "Build Denver, but backdate her, meaning change the mainmast, and check the AA fit"? I was aware of Navsource obviously, having build few USN ships and backdating them (like Trumpeter Washington in 1/700). I wasnt aware of the camouflage page though, thats helpful, thanks. Let me know if more than AA and mainmast are needed to do, or there is more in terms of actual superstructure....

Do you know this page?
[url]https://www.shipcamouflage.com/usn_cl.htm[/url]

Plus this one?
[url]https://www.navsource.org/archives/04idx.htm[/url]

and this one:
[img]https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a6/USS_Denver_%28CL-58%29_in_a_South_Pacific_harbour%2C_circa_1943_%28NH_84397%29.jpg[/img]
[url]https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:USS_Denver_(CL-58)#/media/File:USS_Denver_(CL-58)_in_a_South_Pacific_harbour,_circa_1943_(NH_84397).jpg[/url]

[img]https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b2/USS_Denver_%28CL-58%29_enters_Havannah_harbour_%28%C3%89fat%C3%A9_Island%29_on_22_April_1943.jpg[/img]
[url]https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:USS_Denver_(CL-58)#/media/File:USS_Denver_(CL-58)_enters_Havannah_harbour_(%C3%89fat%C3%A9_Island)_on_22_April_1943.jpg[/url]

[quote="DrPR"]I am afraid I do not understand your question.

"... anything that's 1944 ...?

The Cleveland CL-55 was around in 1944. In fact, none of the Cleveland class was sunk, so you could pick any of the early round bridge versions. They were all launched before 1944 and were still around.

Phil[/quote]
Let me try to clarify.

If my goal is to have a model of any Cleveland class cruiser painted Measure 21, 5B Navy Blue, what are my possible choices among existing actual ships that would match closest to the kit as a conversion?

Id like to understand if there was an MS21 painted Cleveland with round bridge, was there one? Which one? Dont want to have a huge amount of work done on changing the model, so Im trying to find out if I should bother at all if I want an all navy blue model (a type of paint I really like on a ship and want my models with it). Hope that makes sense now.

I am afraid I do not understand your question.

"... anything that's 1944 ...?

The Cleveland CL-55 was around in 1944. In fact, none of the Cleveland class was sunk, so you could pick any of the early round bridge versions. They were all launched before 1944 and were still around.

Phil

[quote="DrPR"]CL-55 USS [i]Cleveland[/i] through CL-63 USS [i]Mobile[/i] were "round bridge" versions. They had an oval armored pilot house at the front of the superstructure. There were a number of changes to these early members of the class as Dick mentioned. One of the most visible was the addition of a cavity in the stern plating for the aft navigation light, formation light and wake light. These were on the outside of the plating on CL-55 and CL-56, but all other Cleveland class ships had the recess in the hull plating for these lights. The boat farm midships was eliminated along with the boat cranes.

CL-64 USS [i]Vincinnes[/i] and all other Cleveland class ships had the armored pilot house removed and replaced with the "square bridge" at the front of the superstructure. There were other changes to the entire superstructure that make converting the round bridge model to a square bridge version difficult. The positions of the gun directors were changed. The port and starboard 5"-38 gun mounts were repositioned from frame 88 where they were on the original ships to frame 92, and the anti-aircraft gun suite was heavily modified. The range finders were removed from 6"/47 turret 1.

For an overview of the changes to the Cleveland class ships (not every small change is listed) see this link:

https://www.okieboat.com/Cleveland%20Class%20History.html

Phil[/quote]

Thanks Phil, bouncing off your good knowledge with a follow up question then. If I want to have my Cleveland CL55 to be converted into anything thats 1944, and painted Measure 21 (all navy blue) - how would you go about it? Or a fools errand, better go MS22 and 1945. I just love an all blue USN warship in the collection, and Id like to build one as a cruiser. I thought I could do it with CL55, but clearly not possible. Am I SOL and need to pick another subject for the MS21, like New Orleans or smth...`?

CL-57 USS Montpelier General Arrangement (1940) https://archive.org/details/cl57ga1940/cl57ga1940-cs/
CL-89 USS Miami Booklet of General Plans (1946) https://archive.org/details/cl89bogp1946

CL-55 USS [i]Cleveland[/i] through CL-63 USS [i]Mobile[/i] were "round bridge" versions. They had an oval armored pilot house at the front of the superstructure. There were a number of changes to these early members of the class as Dick mentioned. One of the most visible was the addition of a cavity in the stern plating for the aft navigation light, formation light and wake light. These were on the outside of the plating on CL-55 and CL-56, but all other Cleveland class ships had the recess in the hull plating for these lights. The boat farm midships was eliminated along with the boat cranes.

CL-64 USS [i]Vincinnes[/i] and all other Cleveland class ships had the armored pilot house removed and replaced with the "square bridge" at the front of the superstructure. There were other changes to the entire superstructure that make converting the round bridge model to a square bridge version difficult. The positions of the gun directors were changed. The port and starboard 5"-38 gun mounts were repositioned from frame 88 where they were on the original ships to frame 92, and the anti-aircraft gun suite was heavily modified. The range finders were removed from 6"/47 turret 1.

For an overview of the changes to the Cleveland class ships (not every small change is listed) see this link:

https://www.okieboat.com/Cleveland%20Class%20History.html

Phil

Both the Vee and Very Fire kits are the 1945 fit. (The SK-2 radar is a dead give away) Cleveland was unique, so some mods will be needed for sister ships. And significant alterations are needed for the 1942 fit. The most significant difference for other sisters would be the forward quad 40MM support structure. Columbia and Montpelier had a box like structure underneath while all later sisters had a rounded structure. Cleveland has such a structure, but it is only between the O-1 and O-2 levels. On the sisters, the rounded structure went all the way down to the main deck. There were other variations among sisters, so differences have to be tailored to the specific ship. There were also differenced between round-bridge and square-bridge units beyond the shape of the bridge face.

Veryfire makes a 1/700 CL 55 Cleveland.
[attachment=0]vf700920-1700-very-fire-uss-cleveland-cl-55-light-cruiser-standard-version-squadron-model-models__55474.jpg[/attachment]

Do we know which year this represents? Early or late war fit?

Can it be built as any other Cleveland class without much changes (bar decals?)?

I got this as a gift, and ordered PE for it. But Im not sure if this kit lets me be flexible and build it as anything in Cleveland class or it is only CL55 due to some peculiarities Im not familiar with?

Update - found parts to hack together replacements from parts.

Building a USS Springfield CL, post-WW2 for a twist on the usual appearance. (And so I don't have to install quite so many little 20mm guns).


Does anyone have a Pit-Road Cleveland who can spare parts B 36, the after pair of quad 40mm gun tubs? I've managed to wreck mine. :roll_eyes:

I'm happy to trade for any of my many spare bits and pieces. Send me a message.

Thanks!

Thank you Steve.

[quote="Frank Fowler"]Hi Steve,
Will you be adding these in 1/700?
Thanks[/quote]
Hi Frank, yes! Should be ready in a day or so.

Hi Steve,
Will you be adding these in 1/700?
Thanks

[quote="David Sandifer"]Steve, I'm surprised and much obliged. Regards, David[/quote]
You're very welcome!

The set of 15 tubs is ready. Link: https://www.model-monkey.com/product-page/1-350-tubs-for-40mm-twin-gun-bofors-mounts-smooth-shield

Photos later today.