The Ship Model Forum

Suggestions heard.

All of my upcoming designs, realistic or not (I have about 7 more in the works), are being redrawn with RF 3"/50s. Still, I'm booting all but 4 single 40mm mounts (in the British Boffin mountings around the superstructure) and all but 2 quad 20mm guns (on the bow and stern). If I'm gonna have something to serve against small craft, it could at least be considered a DP weapon, rather than solely against the small craft. The 40mm and 20mm proved to be capable of both, with elevations that allow for closer ranged fire.

The 3"/50 RF is a DUAL PURPOSE gun!!!!! Its capable of sustained rate of fire of 50 rounds a minute! More than enough to handle any low flying aircraft or speed boats. Remember the USN replaced the quad 40mm with the 3"/50s on a 1 for 2-3 basis as one 3"/50 equaled the firepower of 2-3 quad 40mms. If you want something close range other than the venerable Browning .50cals then keep a few twin 20mm Oerlikons on the weather deck at the bow, stern, and amidships. The 5"/38 and the 3"/50 can more than handle all aircraft of the era until you get into the high speed jets and by that time guided missiles had taken over.

Well, at a small boat going 30+ knots isn't really going to have too much trouble the "slow-firing" 6" shells, so that is somewhat ineffective.

Also, for which design would you be referring too?

3"/50 are primarily heavy AA, and were the caliber that are could carry proximity fuses. For surface fire, you've got the 6" guns for ship-pounding. Your layout is similar to Yamato in all honesty, in that almost all guns can fire at aircraft (Yamato could fire the big guns with timed fuses, but that's not the point here). If the 3" mounts are set even in some of the lower positions that the 40's were (which are the most likely positions anyways, as they were heavy mountings) they could be used against low-flying targets as well. It just strikes me primarily as a redundant mounting.

Well, mainly to stave off Shinyo attacks. The 3"/50 doesn't have the rate of fire, and the 20mm didn't have the hitting power. The 3"/50s were in positions optimal for AAW, but not as much for surface warfare. The 40mm guns were meant as a quick-firing weapons in an attempt to halt the operation of the Shinyos against ships. Also, they were in supposedly designed mounts, which was remote controlled. The guns were also optimal to be used as a deterrent against aircraft flying low above the ship, where a high rate of fire and heavy punch could take out the lightly armored Japanese aircraft.

I think my biggest comment/question would be why your fascination with having both 40mm and 3"/50RF mountings? The 3/50RF replaced the Bofors 40mm for ship defense, and was found to be much more effective.

Destroyer class Large Cruiser:

Designed as a heavy cruiser counterpart to the Nebraska class, 4 built.

USS Kearsarge, United States Large Cruiser laid down 1946, launched 1948, commissioned 1949

15 RF 8"/55s (5x3)
8 6"/47s (4x2)
12 5"/38s (6x2)
26 3"/50s (9x2, 8x1)
20 40mm (4x4, 4x1)
96 20mm (23x4)

Speed: 30 knots, 6 shafts

Length: 852 feet

Beam: 80 feet

Draft: 30 feet

Beast class Medium Cruiser:

Designed as a heavy escort for convoys crossing submarine waters, they were also given the task as carrier escorts and radar pickets. The ships operated as radar pickets in company with a destroyer.

USS Terror, United States Medium Cruiser laid down 1947, launched 1948, commissioned 1948

6 8"/55s (2x3)
12 5"/38s (6x2)
15 3"/50s (7x2, 1x1)
16 40mm (4x4)
48 20mm (12x4)

Speed: 33 knots

Length: 554 feet

Beam: 70 feet

Draft: 23 feet

Dwarf class AA cruiser

Designed as an AA escort for convoys moving through enemy controlled airspace.

4 6"/47s (2x2)
6 5"/38s (3x2)
32 40mm (8x4)
16 20mm (16x1)

Speed: 24 knots, 2 shafts

Length: 453 feet

Beam: 62 feet

Draft: 27 feet

Monitor class monitor:

Designed as shore bombardment ships and as heavy escorts.

3 16"/45s (1x3)
4 6"/47s (2x2)
6 5"/38s (3x2)
24 40mm (4x4, 4x2)
50 20mm (4x4, 34x1)

Speed: 24 knots, 2 shafts

Length: 450 feet

Beam: 90 feet

Draft: 23 feet

Colosseum class battlecruiser:

Designed as a commerce raider super fast battleship for the envisioned "Vanguard Fleet", makes up for lesser armament with faster firing rate and greater volume of weapons.

USS Pantheon, United States Battlecruiser laid down 1946, launched 1948, commissioned 1949:

9 New Model 14"/50s (3x3)
8 8"/55s (4x2)
8 6"/47s (4x2)
32 3"/50s (16x2)
16 40mm (4x4)
100 20mm (25x4)

Speed: 37 knots, 5 shafts

Length: 821 feet

Beam: 100 feet

Draft: 30 feet

Oriskany class Battlecruiser:

Designed as a commerce raider and heavyweight fighter for the envisioned "Vanguard Fleet"

USS Reprisal, United States Battlecruiser laid down 1946, launched 1948, commissioned 1949.

6 18"/50s (2x3)
6 RF 8"/55s (2x3)
12 6"/47s (6x2)
40 3"/50s (20x2)
16 40mm (4x4)
100 20mm (25x4)

Speed: 37 knots

Length: 892 feet

Beam: 100 feet

Draft: 36 feet

Speaking of which, After tons of thought, the design has been altered...again (My own version of SharpSpring)

USS Nebraska, United States Battleship, laid down in 1944, launched in 1947, commissioned in 1948.

Armament would consist of:
15 16"/50s (5x3)
32 6"/47s (10x2, 4x3)
50 3"/50s (25x2)
30 40mm (6x4, 6x1)
160 20mm (40x4)
2 5"/38s (2x1)

The 5"/38s are used to launch starshells, AAW/ASW, and anti-submarine use.
(link: http://navweaps.com/Weapons/WNUS_5-38_mk12.htm Under Ammunition Notes, #9)
NavWeaps.com says: "In the early 1950s an anti-submarine projectile designated as EX-30 was under development. This was a long, fin-stabilized projectile weighing 75.0 lbs. (34.0 kg) and with a muzzle velocity of 300 to 500 fps (91 to 152 mps) intended to be used against submarines within 2,000 yards (1,830 m). The propellant was inserted between the shrouded tail fins. Initial testing in 1952 was successful but the project was not further developed."

Speed would be 28-30 knots, 6 shafts

Length: 1,300 feet

Beam: 140 feet

Draft: 33 feet

Design was created without any concernment towards facilities, and is in my WIP Alternate History.

I think though, it is time that I share some other ship designs...

Technology marches on, right? Oh well.... It will be so nice when someone finally figures out a way to get programs to work with all the different formats that are now in use.

The big difference in the displacement seems to come from the Hull, Equipment, and Fittings, which went from 50K to over 80K tons, without any explanation anywhere else. This, combined with the increased survivablity, suggests to me that the hull itself is much thicker, thus allowing for the lighter armor belts. That's just my guess, though.

I would fix the problem, I would, but I've since upgraded to an iMac, and SharpSpring does not seem to be compatible.

Something doesn't look quite right here in comparing the last two versions you listed. The last version has less armament, less armor (a lot less, nearly half), is slightly shorter (though the same beam and draft), yet it has a far greater displacement than the prior version and will take more torpedoes and 16" shellfire. It appears to have the same propulsion system @ 27kw. I'm confused!???

New revised armament:

6 16"/50 triples
12 6"47 twins
4 quad 20mm Thunderbolts
4 quad .50 cal Maxims
18 quad 40mm Bofors
60 20mm Oerlikons

Sharpspring:

USS Nebraska, United States Battleship laid down 1947 (Engine 1943)

Displacement:
115,597 t light; 131,547 t standard; 136,139 t normal; 139,812 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
1,053.75 ft / 940.00 ft x 137.00 ft x 37.00 ft (normal load)
321.18 m / 286.51 m x 41.76 m x 11.28 m

Armament:
15 - 16.00" / 406 mm guns (5x3 guns), 2,048.00lbs / 928.96kg shells, 1947 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, majority forward
24 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns (14 mounts), 108.00lbs / 48.99kg shells, 1947 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships
72 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns (18x4 guns), 1.95lbs / 0.89kg shells, 1947 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
68 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm guns in single mounts, 0.24lbs / 0.11kg shells, 1947 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 33,469 lbs / 15,181 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 700

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 7.00" / 178 mm 585.00 ft / 178.31 m 14.05 ft / 4.28 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 96 % of normal length

- Torpedo Bulkhead:
3.00" / 76 mm 585.00 ft / 178.31 m 37.03 ft / 11.29 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 13.0" / 330 mm 9.00" / 229 mm 9.00" / 229 mm
2nd: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm -

- Armour deck: 3.00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 2.00" / 51 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 6 shafts, 231,033 shp / 172,350 Kw = 27.00 kts
Range 5,200nm at 17.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 8,266 tons

Complement:
3,542 - 4,606

Cost:
£61.058 million / $244.233 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 4,184 tons, 3.1 %
Armour: 16,926 tons, 12.4 %
- Belts: 2,561 tons, 1.9 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 2,405 tons, 1.8 %
- Armament: 4,544 tons, 3.3 %
- Armour Deck: 7,302 tons, 5.4 %
- Conning Tower: 114 tons, 0.1 %
Machinery: 5,967 tons, 4.4 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 88,521 tons, 65.0 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 20,541 tons, 15.1 %
Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0.0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
259,956 lbs / 117,914 Kg = 126.9 x 16.0 " / 406 mm shells or 53.9 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.23
Metacentric height 11.6 ft / 3.6 m
Roll period: 16.9 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 69 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.34
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.02

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has low forecastle, rise forward of midbreak, low quarterdeck
Block coefficient: 1.000
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.86 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 30.66 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 50 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 68
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 75.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 30.48 ft / 9.29 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 23.22 ft / 7.08 m (36.22 ft / 11.04 m aft of break)
- Mid (30 %): 23.22 ft / 7.08 m (20.22 ft / 6.16 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 20.22 ft / 6.16 m (23.22 ft / 7.08 m before break)
- Stern: 25.22 ft / 7.69 m
- Average freeboard: 23.55 ft / 7.18 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 55.5 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 162.4 %
Waterplane Area: 131,574 Square feet or 12,224 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 218 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 545 lbs/sq ft or 2,661 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 2.76
- Longitudinal: 2.14
- Overall: 2.28
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent

Yeah, after trying that with Sharpspring, I do think that it is a little out there. Here is the revised armament.

6 16"/50 triples
12 6"47 twins
4 3"/50 RF twins
4 3"/50 RF singles
4 quad 20mm Thunderbolts
4 quad .50 cal Maxims
18 quad 40mm Bofors
60 20mm Oerlikons

According to Sharpspring:

USS Nebraska ex-Nehock, United States Battleship laid down 1947 (Engine 1943)

Displacement:
102,065 t light; 120,250 t standard; 124,263 t normal; 127,473 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
1,100.00 ft / 1,100.00 ft x 137.00 ft x 37.00 ft (normal load)
335.28 m / 335.28 m x 41.76 m x 11.28 m

Armament:
18 - 16.00" / 406 mm guns (6x3 guns), 2,048.00lbs / 928.96kg shells, 1947 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread
24 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns (14 mounts), 108.00lbs / 48.99kg shells, 1947 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships
12 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns (8 mounts), 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1947 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
72 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns (18x4 guns), 1.95lbs / 0.89kg shells, 1947 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
68 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm guns in single mounts, 0.24lbs / 0.11kg shells, 1947 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 39,775 lbs / 18,042 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 700

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 17.0" / 432 mm 970.00 ft / 295.66 m 25.00 ft / 7.62 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 136 % of normal length

- Torpedo Bulkhead:
3.00" / 76 mm 960.00 ft / 292.61 m 23.00 ft / 7.01 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 13.0" / 330 mm 9.00" / 229 mm 9.00" / 229 mm
2nd: 3.00" / 76 mm 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm

- Armour deck: 4.00" / 102 mm, Conning tower: 3.00" / 76 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 6 shafts, 175,217 shp / 130,712 Kw = 27.00 kts
Range 5,200nm at 17.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 7,223 tons

Complement:
3,308 - 4,301

Cost:
£60.961 million / $243.846 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 4,972 tons, 4.0 %
Armour: 34,562 tons, 27.8 %
- Belts: 16,785 tons, 13.5 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 2,451 tons, 2.0 %
- Armament: 5,143 tons, 4.1 %
- Armour Deck: 10,021 tons, 8.1 %
- Conning Tower: 161 tons, 0.1 %
Machinery: 4,525 tons, 3.6 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 58,006 tons, 46.7 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 22,198 tons, 17.9 %
Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0.0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
235,837 lbs / 106,974 Kg = 115.2 x 16.0 " / 406 mm shells or 42.6 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.44
Metacentric height 15.0 ft / 4.6 m
Roll period: 14.8 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 49 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.31
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.19

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.780
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.03 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 37.53 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 41 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 41
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 36.48 ft / 11.12 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 23.22 ft / 7.08 m
- Mid (50 %): 23.22 ft / 7.08 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 23.22 ft / 7.08 m
- Stern: 23.22 ft / 7.08 m
- Average freeboard: 24.28 ft / 7.40 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 63.7 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 181.1 %
Waterplane Area: 135,421 Square feet or 12,581 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 149 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 346 lbs/sq ft or 1,689 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 1.66
- Longitudinal: 1.12
- Overall: 1.23
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent


I have a feeling I didn't look at this right, so can anyone comment? Or help me interpret overall how well the design is?
I am willing to reduce the number of main turrets to 5 mounts, and the secondaries down to 10 mounts.

You have to be careful when putting so many different guns on your ship - you're slipping back into the pre-dreadnought age with ships carrying guns of so many different calibres. Would the displacement and space taken up by, in your case, 8" guns be better used for increased speed, armour, or one more main calibre armament or more AA guns?

You know, besides length and width, you have to consider what the draft of such a vessal would be. Then, with those dimensions, you need to locate the shipyard having a water depth sufficient for such draft and graving docks of sufficient size. Sometimes there are physical aspects of a channel that do not permit dredging beyond a certain depth, such as bedrock. And you have to have fitting out piers and supply and ammo piers with sufficient water depth too.

Will there be a sheltered anchorage close by it's area of operations (Now called Area of Responsibility) with the capacity to handle it? Check out the water depth at Ulithi lagoon and the channels into it. The same for Pearl, for that matter.

Sorry, I meant that instead of building two more Montanas, the USN wants to build a ship that can take on an H-class or 4-turreted Yamato alone. They use different weapons against different parts of a ship. Or should I just make 5 or 6 16"/50s instead of 4, and take off the 8"/55s? No matter what, I am keeping at least 4 of the 6"/47s on, as they at least will take out weaker portions of a ship.

Two Montanas? Then probably closer 160,000 (long) tons full load. I hope your alt history has big dredge boats to clear a channel for her. I think you can count the number of ports in the world in 1947 that can handle a ship that large on one hand.

It's supposed to fill the space of two Montana class BBs inmy alt. History

Your talking about a real big ship. Probably up to 80,000 Long tons full load. You would need at least 90 mega watts power to get a decent speed out of it. (120,000 SHP) Four shafts, two rudders, and a heap of Money.

What sort of length, beam, and draft would you think be necessary for this type of armament? Also, how many screws, stacks, crew would be able to fit?

4 16/50 inch turrets
4 8/55 inch RF triples
8 6/47 DP RF twins
6 5/38 open mounts
3 5/54 singles
6 casemate 5/51 single mounts
4 3/50 RF twins
5 3/50 RF singles
4 quad 20mm "Thunderbolts"
6 quad .50 Maxim turrets
16-18 quad 40mm Bofors
60-65 single 20mm Oerlikons

I was thinking something like 1,100 ft length, and some 130 ft beam, and 35 ft draft.

The 16/8 inch turrets would be on the centerline, the 16 inchers mostly concentrated fore, in a Nelson-style layout. The 6 inchers in a layout of the usual 5/38 duel mounts. The Thunderbolts would be placed in areas of lesser AA batteries, and the Maxims in areas of heavy 20mm concentration. The 3 inchers would go 1 single forward, 4 aft; and 2 twins forward, 2 aft. Casemates are in the vacinity of the stacks, in the center. 5/38 opens are 2 fore, 4 aft. 5/54s would go 1 fore, 2 aft. Single Oerlikons/Quad Bofors would be spread around the ship.

Anything else, I am ready for criticism. I know the casemates are somewhat obsolete, but I like the look of them on ships.


Oh and before I forget to mention again, this is in 1947, my Alternate history, and a field test platform for new types guns.
The idea to put on the 8 inch guns came from these threads:

http://warships1discussionboards.yuku.c ... wboat.html

http://warships1discussionboards.yuku.c ... rt-II.html

http://warships1discussionboards.yuku.c ... t-III.html

http://warships1discussionboards.yuku.c ... rt-IV.html

http://warships1discussionboards.yuku.c ... art-V.html

http://warships1discussionboards.yuku.c ... rt-VI.html

A full explanation can be seen in the build-up thread:

viewtopic.php?f=59&t=54929