The Ship Model Forum

[quote="Michael Potter"]Tracy, then rely instead on the unambiguous photos that I linked to. [/quote]

It's not unambiguous and the paints weren't obsolete at the time you say they were. There's almost no doubt about Indianapolis and I said that. I'm not arguing with you about Missouri any further in this thread since we've tilted far into "off topic."

*edit* by above, I mean there's almost no doubt Indianapolis was in neutral colors.

Tracy, then rely instead on the unambiguous photos that I linked to. You imply that in the November-December 1944 overhaul "for final fitting out as fleet flagship," Hunters Point Navy Yard painted the entire battleship above the lowest point of the sheer line in an obsolete paint that nobody could have reason to believe would be available for upkeep in theater. At the same time, west coast navy yards were painting ships in neutral grays for the same camouflage measure 22. Having seen your useful work elsewhere on the WWW, I think you are too competent a researcher that you can seriously believe that.

USS [i]Indianapolis[/i] too was a fleet flagship.

final fitting out as fleet flagship: < [url=http://www.hazegray.org/danfs/battlesh/bb63.htm/]Dictionary of American Naval Fighting Ships record for USS [i]Missouri[/i][/url] >

[quote="Michael Potter"]< [url=http://www.navsource.org/archives/01/016318c.jpg]Color photograph of USS [i]Missouri[/i] in #27 neutral gray, 2 September 1945[/url] >[/quote]

[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_Instrument_of_Surrender#/media/File:Surrender_of_Japan_-_USS_Missouri.jpg]This isn't nearly as neutral[/url]. Don't trust color photography unless you understand the technical details of color film, reproduction, and the details of what was used in producing a color photograph or scan.

A modeler can decide by the photographs:

< [url=http://www.navsource.org/archives/01/015818.jpg]Color photograph of USS [i]Indiana[/i] and USS [i]Massachusetts[/i] in #27 neutral gray, 9 August 1945[/url] >

< [url=http://www.navsource.org/archives/01/016318c.jpg]Color photograph of USS [i]Missouri[/i] in #27 neutral gray, 2 September 1945[/url] >

While some ships were repainted in theater during 1945, the photographic record does not support that the above battleships had any change after they were last in US naval shipyards in 1944. We also have color footage, including "US Naval Forces at Iwo Jima in Japan" on YouTube.com. The term "a matter of opinion" about the use of neutral grays before 1945 requires a belief that the above photographs and film footage are ambiguous or inconclusive.

In my previous post, I have edited the term for the discontinued paint.

[quote="Michael Potter"]both battleships in 1945 show that both wore #27 neutral gray, not the discontinued 5-O purple gray.[/quote]

The above is a matter of opinion.

Indianapolis was very likely in neutrals as she was repainted on the west coast - the other ships (and not just the two battleships Michael mentions) in the Navy weren't necessarily painted in neutrals due to supply chains. Unfortunately we don't have a good picture of when the new paints were forwarded out to specific bases or activities, but Indianapolis' overhaul was late enough that it's very hard to see circumstances where Mare Island would have been using old stock.

More about this subject: USS [i]Indianapolis[/i], USS [i]Indiana[/i], and USS [i]Missouri[/i] all were repainted to camouflage measure 22 in late 1944 at US west coast navy yards. I've seen no color still photo of USS [i]Indianapolis[/i] from that time but color photos of both battleships in 1945 show that both wore #27 neutral gray, not the discontinued purple-gray 5-H haze gray.

In particular, at Navsource see the color photo of [i]Indiana[/i], USS [i]Massachusetts[/i], and a cruiser bombarding Japan.

It is possible that color movies from 1945 show USS [i]Indianapolis[/i]. Other ships seen in such movies on YouTube are again in neutral grays.

Hi Michael,

Thanks for correcting me, I was under the impression that the neutral colours were not in widespread use until later as stocks of the blue tint were used up.

USN late-war camouflage used neutral grays, [b]not[/b] 5-_ early-war blue-grays. On her fatal last cruise USS [i]Indianapolis[/i] used #7 neutral navy gray, #27 neutral haze gray, and #4 neutral deck gray. ColourCoats has those shades but AFAIK no US supplies are available for #27 neutral haze gray (ColourCoats US32). A relatively new pack (from Life Color?) of USN late-WW2 paints has, if the box art is indicative, the correct #27 neutral haze gray. [i][2016-08-07 edit: product number is corrected to US32][/i]

Reference: [url=http://shipcamouflage.com/5_1.htm]The Development of Naval Camouflage by Alan Raven - Part V: USN in WW2[/url]

Color photos of USS [i]Missouri[/i], painted in measure 32 during summer 1944, show that neutral grays were already in use that early. [i][2016-08-07 comment: Many commentators insist that Missouri when in measure 32 wore early-war 5-O, 20-B, and black. Color images on line are inconsistent and have distortions after multiple re-processings. Lester Abbey's Shipcraft book [u]Iowa Class Battleships[/u] depicts neutral grays.][/i]

The Snyder-Short chip for "#27 Haze gray" is postwar neutral gray, not #27 neutral haze gray. But ColourCoats US32 is right. [i][2016-08-07 edit: product number is corrected to US32][/i]

My solution may be unorthodox but it works for me: I took a correct sample of #27 neutral haze gray to Home Depot and for $5 bought a color-matched 215ml sample of Behr semi-gloss "enamel"(actually water-based). In a 50/50 solution with acrylic thinner, it works in my airbrush if applied very lightly. I also use it by brush unthinned for touch up.

Thanks so much for the help, Vlad! I did not realize that 5-N was the same color just faded, I will follow your advice and weather the XF-17 deck blue once I complete painting.

I'm going to try to replicate H-5 by using neutral grey, though I do agree with you it might need a little bit more of a bluish tint to it. It does seem a little too dark though, I might lighten it up just a little bit for some fading.

I was in a similar position to you and over time I built up my own colour library based on my chosen readily available manufacturer (in my case Humbrol). Disclaimer: these are approximate matches and are heavily influenced by my perception and how I like my ships to look. Having said that, I hope they can help you.

Firstly, the decks. Wood decks would be stained to 20-B deck blue in 1945, so use the blue Pontos stickers. Secondly, deck blue itself was designed to match 5-N Navy Blue so freshly painted they should look the same. Any lightening would be purely due to fading or wear and is entirely up to you. Personally, I treat them as equivalent and use the same paint for both as a base coat, then weather as required.

So for me this project would only use two paint colours:

5-N and 20-B (deck blue) - Humbrol 104
5-H Haze Grey - Humbrol 128

Using a conversion chart I found online:

5-N and 20-B - Tamiya XF-17
5-H Haze Grey - Tamiya XF-53

Main thing to note about 5-H is that it should have a noticeable blue tint, some pictures show XF-53 looking a bit too neutral. Do not use matches for post-war or modern Haze Grey. This site has more details regarding the development of US paint in WWII:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_ship_camouflage_measures_of_the_United_States_Navy

From what you've said it sounds like my "matches" would make your model come out too dark for your liking but it's what I would do at least as a starting point before weathering. Note I don't subscribe to scale lightening and I generally like my models looking freshly painted and a bit vibrant.

Since I usually build waterline I can't help with hull color, I take the approach that red will do as long as it isn't so bright it could be mistaken for lipstick!

Hope that helps :wave_1:

For the past few months I've been working on an Academy USS Indianapolis with the pontos advanced set.

I mainly use Tamiya acrylics to paint, and was wondering if anyone here had any insight on proper paint mixtures to achieve at least semi-accurate colors with Tamiya paints for the Indy.

Deck Blue I am thinking is somewhat similar to a mixture of XF-50 (Field Blue) and XF-18 (Medium Blue) as well as some XF-2 to lighten it up a tad in a 2:2:1 ratio

I am unsure of what color to use for the hull red. I have used XF-9 in the past, but I'm not certain if US Navy warships had a brighter red hull compared to this color. I was thinking of mixing some XF-7 with XF-9 and some XF-2 to create a slightly more red shade. Would this be accurate?

The main 5-N Navy Blue (Academy's instructions say FS15042) is another thing I am having a lot of trouble getting a proper mixture. I've tried mixing XF-17 (Sea Blue) and XF-8 (Flat Blue), but the color comes out seeming far too dark, even when lightened with some XF-2. Would really appreciate some advice on this one, as it's the main thing holding me up.

As for the main hull gray color, I was thinking about using XF-19 (Sky Grey), as other Tamiya greys I have such as XF-66 (Light Grey) XF-25 (Light Sea Grey) and XF-54 (Neutral Grey) all appear very different from the references I've found.

Lastly, pontos includes two deck stickers with their kit; one for an unpainted deck, and another with a Deck Blue color painted on. I can't find any information as to which deck would be accurate for the Indianapolis during 1945.

Thanks in advance.