The Ship Model Forum

Terry,

These diagrams would likely be the source of Raven's illustrations. They are identical down to the style of hatching and selection of ship types.
[attachment=3]A & B.JPG[/attachment]
[attachment=2]C & D.JPG[/attachment]
Note Raven's Scheme D colours on page 39 are the same as his Scheme C colours on page 38 which I suspect was a proof reading error as they were actually different:
[attachment=0]5 - Copy.JPG[/attachment]
And for completeness, confirmation of where Schemes C & D were intended for:
[attachment=1]7 - Copy (2).JPG[/attachment]

The Standard Schemes are also described in Alan Raven's Warship Perspective, Camouflage Vol. 4 Royal Navy Supplement, pp 37-39
It is a copy from official document, but it quiet clearly cites the A & B features and also mentions C & D for Convoy Escorts
I am finding this discussion very interesting

** tried to copy the pages but they came out too big for the allowed attached files.

[quote="Brett Morrow"]
Whilst you have provided documentation of the continued use of 507A and C, they were superseded by the MS and then the G`s and B`s.
[/quote]

Sorry Brett but I have to come back on this.

We are in agreement that in the wartime era of the B&G series paints, ie from May 1943 onwards, any listing of the paints on a camouflaged ship that mixes B&G terminology with 507 terminology, ie that mentions 507A or C rather than G10 or G45 is almost certainly wrong.

However 507A and 507C were not superseded by the MS paints in the MS&B era, ie 1941 – May 1943, as you state.

There are innumerable documents on file in the UK archives from the very people in the Naval Camouflage Section at Leamington that designed the disruptive camouflage schemes, and from the Admiralty department (DTSD) in London that they worked for, listing the colours in use in their designs. 507A and 507C are included alongside the MS&B paints. Some easily accessible examples can be found in the designs illustrated in CAFO 679 of 9th April 1942. Here is one such:[attachment=1]Plate 54.jpg[/attachment]

This would be because no paint in the MS&B series was the same shade as 507A & C (unlike in the B&G series where G10 was the same shade as 507A and G45 was the same shade as 507C).

Now our suspicion is that true (semi-gloss) 507A & C would not in practice have been used in 1941-May 1943 camouflage designs alongside the matt MS&B paints. We suspect that “507A” and “507C” were often being used in documents etc as shorthand for the commercially available or Portsmouth Dockyard mixes of matt versions of the shade of Home Fleet Grey (507A) and the shade of Mediterranean Grey (507C). This is suggested in various places not least in this listing of the then standard camouflage colours from a Leamington document dated 25 Nov 1941:[attachment=0]119 - Copy.JPG[/attachment]

A fair call Dick, I think James may have interpreted my post.
Whilst you have provided documentation of the continued use of 507A and C, they were superseded by the MS and then the G`s and B`s.
My interpretation is that the approval for the continued use of those two colours was the fact they were actually G10 and G45 and thus served purpose.
They may have been the same formula but they were members of the G range in 43, not the 507`s.
Very few understand the colour changes throughout the war, next week there will be a further enquiry if HMS, HMAS***** was in 507C in 44? if you want to split straws yes, but it wasn`t 507C, it was G45.

It may be a slight misalignment in intent?

Whilst dick is obviously fully justified in stating that the 507A and 507C paints remained available and perfectly valid, I read Brett's comment as more meaning that as far as camouflage is concerned the new nomenclature was generally used from 1943 to 1945. It happened to be the case though that G10 = 507A and G45 = 507C. The camouflage CAFOs and CBs I've seen all stay consistently within one type of notation to help better describe the designs contained therein.

I think what Brett may be getting at is that there are some non-primary sources out there which advocate a mish-mash of paints and notations which, without further explanation as to why something is painted in (for example), G5, B15 and 507C, are more probably anachronisms of when nomenclature was in use than records of a substitution of G45 for its equivalent 507C.

[quote="Brett Morrow"]Steve, the 507 series had been superseded way back in mid 42, the G colour series was in use in 45.
It is a misconception by most that the 507 colours continued through to the end of the war, and this notion will not go away.
[/quote]

Brett I'm sorry but I have to disagree with you on this one. 507A & C continued right through the war. Maybe you are thinking in a purely Australian context?

AFO 2106 of 1943 which introduced the new B&G series paints makes it clear that 507A & C continued in use:

[attachment=3]zAFO 2106 May 1943 re 507A&C.jpg[/attachment]
These are those emergency schemes (from CB 3098R of May 1943):

[attachment=2]z 507A&C in Emergency schemes .jpg[/attachment]
The paint AFO 3113 of June 1944 makes it clear 507A&C still continued then:

[attachment=1]zAFO 3113 June 1944 re 507A&C.jpg[/attachment]
As does the Paint AFO 3545 of June 1945

[attachment=0]zAFO 3545 June 1945 re 507A&C.jpg[/attachment]

[quote="Vlad"]

Note also that some carriers e.g. HMS Implacable had a dark strip running the full length of the hull, not just an amidships panel.[/quote]

Yes, but that is the postwar BPF scheme authorised 12 Oct 1945. The hull was originally supposed to be the darker B15 in that scheme. Here is Implacable in 1946.
[attachment=1]Implacable 1946 Melbourne - Copy.jpg[/attachment]
Implacable had the Standard Scheme A hull panel in 1945
[attachment=0]Implacable Oct 5 45 - Copy.jpg[/attachment]

Already answered above - but there's fairly concrete information that it would have been Scheme A in the Pacific, and that Scheme A comprised a G45 scheme with B20 panel on the hull. Both Brett and Vlad are also correct. You would not see "507C" used in a 1944 or 1945 scheme as the camouflage paints had been replaced by the simplified nomenclature of the G&B series whereby G denoted Grey and B denoted Blue-Grey, whilst the following digits described the tone as Light Reflectance Value. G10 was however exactly the same colour as 507A and G45 was exactly the same colour as 507C - this is stated explicitly in Admiralty Fleet Order 2016/43.

The Confidential Book C.B.3098(R) 1945 edition repeated the CAFO mentioned by Brett. The schemes are illustrated in there in black and white with hatching, but that's only because Schemes A and B were identical in shape/design but the applicable colours varied depending on station as described by dick.

I haven't redrawn the carriers from those documents yet, but the schemes A and B look very similar for both capital ships and carriers. Where the panel sits starts to change a little when down to destroyer size but you'll get the gist comparing a battleship with a carrier. The shape of the panel broadly mimics the shape of the real hull's bow rake. The above noted documents detail where the 4 corners of the panel need to be in relation to the ship's overall hull dimensions.

[img]https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0730/0927/files/HMS_King_George_V_1945_1024x1024.jpg?v=1568055883[/img]

I'm not sure where this 2-greys idea originated, but I note that Tamiya ended up enshrining it in their KGV kit painting guide so unfortunately it's highly unlikely to go away from a rather long time to come.

Scheme B was Home and Med areas in winter only so you should not see it in the Pacific. For pictures of ships in Scheme B a place to start looking might be destroyers escorting Russian convoys winter 1944-45.

I'm sure Jamie will chime in soon with more detail. Brett is correct regarding the colour names, but G45 [i]is[/i] 507C, or at least has the same colour formulation and should look the same, just called differently to match the new naming scheme. The hull panel in that scheme is indeed B20. I'd be very curious to know more about which ships wore this "Scheme B" of B55/B30 as this is the first time I see that colour combination mentioned in this context.

Note also that some carriers e.g. HMS Implacable had a dark strip running the full length of the hull, not just an amidships panel.

Steve, the 507 series had been superseded way back in mid 42, the G colour series was in use in 45.
It is a misconception by most that the 507 colours continued through to the end of the war, and this notion will not go away.
RN carriers for that time period serving in the Pacific were in either 2 tone Admiralty scheme A or B.
Documentation in relation to CAFO diagram 212/44(1) states that scheme A was G45 with hull flash B20, scheme B was B55 with B30 hull flash.

Does anybody have any information on the colour schemes on RN aircraft carriers, I'm thinking 507C for the light grey and 507A for the dark panels on the hull sides - anyone got any better info please?

cheers

Steve