The Ship Model Forum

Hi James,


Thanks again!!!

I'll study all the information you sent me about HMS Stayner.

About the book, a pity indeed, because it would be of great help if it were accurate.

Best regards and thanks again,


Alex.

Hi Alex,

Unfortunately the book you've parted with good money for is less authoritative than the auto-colourisation app. He simply doesn't know what the colours were, what the nomenclature means or when any of them came into use or stopped being used. There's an emphasis of quantity of illustrations over the quality of information behind any of them.

Examples like Stayner (or Duff!) are CB3098(R) standard design patterns which were symmetrical either side. Plate 120 in that publication gives what appears to be the design used on those ships and features a colour palette of G10, B30, G45 and B55 going darkest to lightest.

The G45 and B55 are hard to distinguish in photos but by and large the G45 is the light colour on the hull whilst B55 is the light colour on the superstructure.

Hi James!


My intention in putting the photo was not offending in any way, I just wanted to get an idea of what the App would bring. If I gave you that impression, I'm sorry.

I have to make a decision and as you said nothing is conclusive.

The camouflage design is exactly the same as that used by HMS Kempthorne (K 483) and I just don't choose it because it's Evarts Class and my kit is Buckley Class. I mention this because in the case of HMS Kempthorne we have pictures on both sides, although we would probably have the same problems regarding colors.

Looking in the book "British and Commonwealth Warship Camouflage of WW II" by Malcolm Wright, which is the only book I have on this subject, on the RN Captain page there is a drawing of HMS Bickerton, although the drawing does not match the camouflage of the known photo, it indicates what appears to be White and what seems to me to be B20 (it is my impression only , because in the drawing he mentions "WA Blue" and of couse it is just a drawing).

This theme has been the most difficult for me in over 45 years of modeling. I really had no idea how difficult it is to have a clear definition in the case of the camouflages of most Royal Navy ships.

You mentioned that in the case of HMS Stayner it would be easier. Please, what would be her colors then?

Would the camouflage design on the other side be exactly the same as the side shown in the photo you sent?

Thanks again and best regards,


Alex.

I'm not sure what the auto-colourised photo proves that the imagination couldn't furnish. The ship is predominantly light as evidenced by Trumpeter and Kent but could still be B55.

Either way, I doubt it can be proven what Bickerton was wearing.

Hello again friends!


I thank you again for all the information sent!

I understand it won't be easy and I'll have to make a decision.

The reasons for choosing HMS Bickerton are that I already have the decals and particularly this frigate seems to me easier to reproduce using the Revell model kit, besides the fact that particularly I really liked the design of the camouflage and I'm assuming that the other side of the ship is a mirror of the design of the camouflage that appears in the photo released.

A friend has an App that colors the photos automatically and I asked him to put the photo of HMS Bickerton and pass me the result that the App generated.

Look how interesting the result was! Of course I know that there are several factors to consider (filters in the photos, age of the film, exposure to light etc.), but at least showed something that would give me more elements to make the decision:

[img]https://images2.imgbox.com/95/ae/claTC41Q_o.jpeg[/img]

I think probably GrahamB's suggestions are more in line than it may have been at the time:

"[i]G45 plus any of the three mentioned colours, or, expediently, the US pale grey has simply been partly overpainted with G45 where necessary, with the darker pattern following.[/i]"

Best regards,


Alex.

[quote="dick"][quote="SovereignHobbies"]...in truth I'd probably go with another ship (e.g. HMS Stayner) which I could match to a published standard camouflage scheme ....[/quote]

I'd have thought you would have gone for HMS Duff (in that scheme)![/quote]

A silly name indeed!

[quote="SovereignHobbies"]...in truth I'd probably go with another ship (e.g. HMS Stayner) which I could match to a published standard camouflage scheme ....[/quote]

I'd have thought you would have gone for HMS Duff (in that scheme)!

Hi Alex,

I've just caught up with this thread and am minded to do a Captain Class DE for my next 1/350 project. I am with Jamie on this re HMS Bligh. The image of HMS Bligh at Belfast (in Franklin 1999, [i]The Buckley Class Destroyer Escorts[/i], p. 112) does indicate it to be in a Western Approaches [i][b]pattern[/b][/i] similar to that of HMS Bickerton (conveniently on the same page as Bligh). The pattern itself does not appear in the 1943 CB3098 document and the colours are clearly not the official White/B55. It could be B55 with a mid-dark tone grey or blue (B15, G20, B30?) or G45 plus any of the three mentioned colours, or, expediently, the US pale grey has simply been partly overpainted with G45 where necessary, with the darker pattern following.

Also the treatment of the pendant number is different on Bligh - K467 is applied in an intermediate tone (darker than the paler hull colour, lighter than the darker) whereas Bickerton has black K466.

Cheers,
GrahamB

Hi Alex,

I'm not meaning to be unhelpful or obtuse, but the fact of the matter is that I don't really know what these were and don't want to appear as though I'd be doing anything other than guessing.

Assuming they're British paints, I think the lighter colour is probably either B55 or white. Parts of HMS Trumpeter look light in the background but HMS Kent may still have had small areas in G45 at this point and they're not as bright. That could also be a false steer from me - we've got a reasonable idea what HMS Kent wore prior to this, but whilst the basic pattern here is very similar the tones have changed in some areas and I don't believe we really know what they were.

Were it me, and if forced into a corner I'd probably plump with either G10 or B15 and B55. Unless I really wanted to do HMS Bickerton though, in truth I'd probably go with another ship (e.g. HMS Stayner) which I could match to a published standard camouflage scheme and have more confidence in:

http://www.navsource.org/archives/06/images/564/0656401.jpg

Hi James,


Thanks again!

This is my very first ship model and as you can see I am no expert in this subject.

I would love to have a RN Captain in my collection but I had no idea how complex this subject is.

I am still confused about the colors I should use for the HMS Bickerton and if I am in the right direction considering the camouflage on the other side of the hull exactly the same pattern the IWM photo shows.

Please, what camouflage pattern and what colors would you use on her?

Thanks in advance and best regards,


Alex.

Hi Alex,

In my opinion there's no way those are Western Approaches designs with white and B55. B55 was the lightest colour apart from white in the 1943-1945 Royal Navy colour palette.

The darker shade of paint on those ships appears to be more in the 15%-25% Light Reflectance Value sort of bracket. It could perhaps be as dark as 10% but I struggle to reconcile the idea that it's as light as 30%.

In your first one, compare with HMS Kent juxtaposed being Bickerton. The second darkest paint on Kent would have been B15 (at 15% LRV) if still in proper paints or up to around 20% if in improvised greys as I've seen suggested once. Kent is a little further away and desaturated so direct comparison isn't simple, but the impression given is still relevant.

Dear friends,


Thank you for all the information!

Looking at the photos, I think I'm going to build the HMS Bickerton.

Although we only have one photo showing one side, I saw that HMS Kempthorne (K483) has exactly the same camouflage pattern and in her case we have photos of both sides and the camouflage pattern is the same on both sides.

Photos:

https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205119899 - HMS Bickerton

http://www.navsource.org/archives/06/075.htm - HMS Bickerton

http://www.navsource.org/archives/06/279.htm - HMS Kempthorne (K483)

http://www.royalnavyresearcharchive.org.uk/ESCORT/Galleries/NABOB_Gllery_2.htm - - HMS Kempthorne (K483) --> her other side


I think HMS Bickerton had the same kind of camouflage, what do you think?

If I understood correctly, the camouflage of HMS Bickerton would be B55 and White and the decks painted B30.

Would that be correct for HMS Bickerton?

Looking at the photo, the color looks darker to me, wouldn't it be just B15 and white for the hull?

I must confess I see a light gray on the photos instead of white.

Thanks in advance and best regards,


Alex.

Fortunately 19 years of progress have elapsed since that date of publishing and now, and there are commercial options for B.55 and B.30.

C.B. 3098(R) 1943 edition gives a Western Approaches design as Plate 20, with Plate 120 being a Light Admiralty type scheme (using G10, B30, G45 and B55) and Plate 220 being an Intermediate type scheme (using G10, B15 and G45).

atcampos,

Don't give up!

Taking Dick's post as the inspiration: the image of HMS BICKERTON indicates that she was painted up in a Western Approaches Scheme Design.

Williams D (2001): "Naval Camouflage 1914 - 1945: A Complete Visual Reference." Published by Chatham Publishing gives further details on page 83. As stated by Sovereign Hobbies, the official Reference is CB 3098R (1943). Williams states that this includes designs for the "Captain" class. The colours for these designs were B55 and White: decks are reported in a Table on page 78 as being painted B30. There is no ready-mixed equivalent of B55 commercially available so it will need to be mixed. The specification can be found in Section 3c of Williams on page 243 under Pale Blue (Israeli) and is as follows (all are Humbrol): No 34 (45 drops), No 64 (3), No 80 (2) and No 109 (1). Apparently, there is no ready-mixed equivalent of B30 available either but again, Williams gives a specification for that on page 242 as Blue FS35414; which is (Humbrol again), Nos 25 (1), No 34 (14), No 94 (3) and No 101 (1).

The National Archives at Kew should have a copy of CB 3098(R) (1943) but it a copy may be commercially available.

There are some examples e.g. HMS Stayner which closely resemble one the standard camouflage designs offered for the Captain class in C.B.3098(R).

[quote="dick"]The photo you have linked to shows Bligh in the scheme in which she was delivered to the RN. Alan Raven (WP Vol3, p.7) tells us that the colours used were Sea Blue and Pale Grey. I assume he means 5-S and 5-P. There are a number of contemporary colour images to confirm a blue and a light grey such as these on RN Captains. Alan also tells us that, after working up and joining British commands, the American applied camouflage was replaced with Admiralty types. Quite how quickly this was done may have varied a bit as one or two photos do show Captains on operational service still in this US applied scheme. Bligh appears to have received an RN scheme like the one on Bickerton https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205119899 but the photograph of Bligh in this new scheme (Franklin, The Buckley Class Destroyer Escorts, p. 112) is not clear enough to make any reliable suggestions as to the colours that might have been used (other than to say that they do not look like overall white with a B55 pattern).[/quote]

Hi Dick,

Thanks for your reply!

What a pity! My idea was to build her with Admiralty camouflage.

Do you know if there is any picture showing both sides of a RN Captain with Admiralty camouflage and which colors were used?

I know there are many pictures on the internet, but most (if not all of them) show only one side.

For instance, the HMS Bickerton would be great if I could get the camouflage from the Starboard side and which color should be used on the camouflage.

This has been a challenging project for me and I would like to have a RN Captain in my collection but with the correct camouflage and colors.

I can see that HMS Bligh is out of question due to the lack of pictures.

Thanks in advance and best regards,


Alex.

The photo you have linked to shows Bligh in the scheme in which she was delivered to the RN. Alan Raven (WP Vol3, p.7) tells us that the colours used were Sea Blue and Pale Grey. I assume he means 5-S and 5-P. There are a number of contemporary colour images to confirm a blue and a light grey such as these on RN Captains. Alan also tells us that, after working up and joining British commands, the American applied camouflage was replaced with Admiralty types. Quite how quickly this was done may have varied a bit as one or two photos do show Captains on operational service still in this US applied scheme. Bligh appears to have received an RN scheme like the one on Bickerton https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205119899 but the photograph of Bligh in this new scheme (Franklin, The Buckley Class Destroyer Escorts, p. 112) is not clear enough to make any reliable suggestions as to the colours that might have been used (other than to say that they do not look like overall white with a B55 pattern).

Hello guys!



I am going to build the Revell's 1/249 scale HMS Bligh and I have a doubt regarding the correct colors to use.

Based on Revell's instructions, the hull color would be a light gray and the camouflage would be a kind of "green gray".

Does anybody have any information whether Revell is right or not?

What would be the correct Admiralty colors to be used?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Here is the picture from navsource.org website:

http://www.navsource.org/archives/06/images/076/0607602.jpg

Best regards,


Alex.