The Ship Model Forum

Pretty sure the admiral is Lutjens, Brest, March 41. There was a contingent from Japanese navy, who were allowed on board Gneisenau. Maybe this was filmed for that occasion. It’s funny, Lutjens looks a lot like a guy in my neighborhood growing up, whose grandfather was a German cook in WWI, and another neighbor that looked just looked like Raeder, he was a tank commander with Patton’s core that broke through at the battle of the bulge. Doppelgänger everywhere

Guest, the attachment is merely a screenshot of the video from my first post taken at the 44 second mark to graphically illustrate the point about Gneisenau's hull and superstructure colours looking very similar. That was all.

It would be interesting to know if there was a Kriegsmarine equivalent of an Admiralty Fleet Order for the continued use of the dunkelgrau 51 hull hellgrau 50 superstructure scheme in wartime? Or is the established notion that it continued to be used in wartime based solely on retrospective interpretation of photos?

There is a colour photo here (looks to be a genuine colour photo and not colourised, though I am far from an expert on this) of Scharnhorst reportedly taken during 'Operation Berlin' in early 1941. The show-through remnants of the Baltic Stripes amidships seem to confirm it as 1941. Similar to the footage of Gneisenau in the first post, this photo shows the Scharnhorst's hull and superstructure looking very very similar if not identical in colour:
[url]https://scontent.fdub3-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/fr/cp0/e15/q65/13235143_1705837276335106_7875483439798441456_o.jpg?_nc_cat=108&_nc_sid=e007fa&_nc_ohc=DeaBD-cd3FMAX-uatMt&_nc_ht=scontent.fdub3-1.fna&tp=14&oh=92457bef3f370c15b822f9aa6debd2d9&oe=5F79EEDA[/url]

Though all the same caveats apply. Wear and tear, the particular type of film the photo was taken with etc. etc. Also, and especially in the case of the photo of Scharnhorst, wear and tear on the paintwork of the hull in the Atlantic in wintertime will likely be much worse than wear and tear on the paintwork of the superstructure.

Mr Church,

Thanks for this.

I looked a little bit beyond the basic information about the original shot that you posted. In the German script attached to it somewhere, Admiral Marschall was mentioned and it was probably him in the clip wearing the great-coat and dagger but I may be wrong. He also appears to be receiving a little more in the way of "ceremony" than the other admiral. I thus agree that the clip must date from early to mid 1940. I believe that Admiral Marschall was relieved as Commander-in-Chief of the Fleet soon after as a result of a disagreement with Grand Admiral Raeder

Concerning your point on the shades of grey that the Germans were employing: don't get me started! Although the RAL system was in use at the time, I see anomalies in representation every time I open a book on the subject. Even Leon and Asmussen's two volume work don't seem to agree a common standard. I agree with you that the two shades appear very light and that the film may have something to do with it but I'm getting the feeling that there may have been a component of the paint mix that is making for a more reflective effect.

Sorry, can't open your Attachment: not permitted!

Best Wishes

Thanks guest. Colour footage of German Battleships is quite rare.

Good spot regarding Lütjens. It does look very like him and probably is him. He would have been a full Admiral by the time of Operation Berlin in 1941 so the footage is almost certainly from early to mid 1940. 'Battleships of the Scharnhorst Class' by Koop & Schmolke report the turret tops as having been painted yellow in February 1940. They were changed to red during the invasion of Norway so that would appear to be the timeframe?

Screenshot posted for discussion purposes, copyright remains with the original owner:
[attachment=0]Gneisenau April 1940 11.jpg[/attachment]

Interesting that there appears to be very little difference between the hull and superstructure colours when most sources report that they were different shades of grey as per German pre-war colour schemes, Dunkelgrau 50 Hull, Hellgrau 50 Superstructure. Of course it is possible both have faded to more closely resemble each other or that it is a quirk of the particular type of colour film used? Granted they were not massively dissimilar to start with either.

Also the waterline is very obviously dark grey and not black, compare it to the black trousers worn by the crew on deck. And the yellow turret tops are very consistent and properly painted on, not just a slapdash temporary effort. All in all a very interesting little piece of film I think.

Interesting first post Mr Church, with good shots of some German colour albeit "faded:" I wonder what James Duff would make of them? The slim gentleman of Vice Admiral rank seen wearing a reefer jacket appears to be Admiral Lütjens; which would definitely put it pre-end of May 1941!

Well I don't know for certain as I only found the footage on Youtube and shared it as I thought it may be of interest.

There does not appear to be a catapult on Caesar Turret nor is there the tower aft of the funnel mounting a 20mm flakvierling. So that puts it sometime between March 1940 and January 1941. Gneisenau was torpedoed and damaged by the British Submarine H.M.S. Clyde on June 20th 1940 and was under repair until leaving Kiel on December 28th 1940. So early to mid 1940 seems most likely. The caption says 1940 too.

Make what you will of that.

Yeah...but what year is that, and what operation?
:wave_1:

Some colour footage clearly showing Gneisenau's yellow turret roofs for aerial recognition:

[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EKn0Z_e70sU[/url]