The Ship Model Forum

dhogue wrote:Does anyone know when the Ark Royal got the port side Pom-Poms? I would think that she received them early in the war due to the importance of the ship

21st - 24th April 1941

Howdy all, I am starting on the 1/350 Merit, would like to portray her at sinking with HMS Legion rendering assistance.
I have questions regarding the bulkheads colors, in several images, the enclosed quarterdeck deck supports seem a very light color possibly white, in contrast with all the open side alcoves that seem to be the same grey as the outer upper hull.
Is there any guidance out there?

Thank you.

I'd like to add a few additional comments and a mea culpa or two for my recent criticisms of the Very Fire detail set for the 1/350 Merit International HMS Ark Royal. Some of the "missing" parts (e.g., the port and starboard railings for the wrap-around stern catwalk) were actually in the kit, just not identified or illustrated in the assembly instructions. In any case, their assembly and installation were quite difficult and required way too much CA glue. And at least two of the four loudspeakers have been placed (according to the badly faded instructions) at the top of the funnel on either side of the centerline facing forward and slightly to port and starboard. There are still quite a few small photoetch parts whose identity and positioning are still a mystery. Also, the kit includes about 90 or so tiny resin cylinders that the instructions label as "life jackets", but I have no idea where to place them on the ship. One set of parts I had to ignore were the wood decks for the enclosed forecastle and quarterdecks and the twin 4.5-in mounts; these would have required removal of the flight deck, which would have been too much trouble and would likely result in a ruined model. Besides, even if installed, those deck segments for the 4.5-in mounts may not have been accurate, and the two larger end deck segments would be very difficult to see through the hull openings. One other question I have for the Royal Navy aircraft carrier experts out there -- the Merit plastic kit includes a number of decal white lines for the flight deck, including some making a rectangular pattern around the three elevators. There is also a large central white line running the length of the flight deck. Were those white elevator markings actually present when the ship was sunk?

apfelzra69 wrote: ....Finally (at this time, anyway), where should I place the British ensign flag? Photos of the ship taken just prior to her sinking don't seem to show her flying any flag...

On the funnel:

After completing my OOB build of this kit several years ago, I decided to "upgrade" it with the new Very Fire brass photoetch and resin detail set that came out last year (2021 or 2022). This set is very extensive, but as is typical with this manufacturer, there are many brass parts, and a few resin ones, which are not displayed in the assembly sheets and so I am uncertain whether or where to use them. For example, there are about a half dozen little resin loudspeakers (so identified in the parts list) but no explanation of where they should go (on the island, I would assume, but where, specifically?). Also, the Merit kit's photoetch fret includes 2-bar railing along the flight deck's starboard edge, next to and in front of the island, but such high-resolution photos of this part of the ship (taken after her torpedoing) don't seem to show any railing on the flight deck edge, anywhere, and such a part is absent from the Very Fire set. Finally (at this time, anyway), where should I place the British ensign flag? Photos of the ship taken just prior to her sinking don't seem to show her flying any flag, and earlier photos generally show the ensign flying from a flagpole on the flight deck near the stern, or possibly from the rearmost starboard antenna. A few comments on the Very Fire detail set: the catwalk and railing that wraps around the stern end of the flight deck has the catwalk and railing only on the stern edge; the port and starboard sections are catwalk only, with inverted u-shaped supports atop the catwalks but no connecting rail, which can be clearly seen in photos of the ship prior to her sinking. Also, at least one major catwalk is completely absent from the photoetch fret, so I had to use the slightly smaller and inferior one from the Merit fret. And one further gripe: I made the mistake of leaving the glossy, full color Very Fire assembly instructions on my desk for several months, and where sunlight came through the window above, the colors on the instructions so exposed faded badly as though printed with poor-quality ink.

Read a previous post indicating HMS Ark Royal never had any radar fitted before she was sunk.

I assume this applies to Pom Pom directors too.

I realised all kit manufacturers including Merit International, Trumpeter and Aoshima got the pompom director wrong. They all model it like a lollipop search light shaped object.

Just want to check if all Pom Pom directors (in total of 6) were located here?

HMS Ark Royal by xxx, on Flickr

Thaks in advance

jabarry wrote:Collecting stuff for my new Ark Royal. Check this stuff out. I first ordered the octuple pom poms. When I received the pom poms and saw the quality I went right back and ordered the 4.5 in QF with MKIII mounts. Amazing stuff!

http://www.3dmodelparts.com/

Does anyone know if this shop is still in business? They seem to be the only one producing after market 1/700 4.5 inch guns QF Mark I in twin mounting UD Mark III

Tried to contact them via email a couple of times, but without luck...

Their website states it is out of stock but can be replenished in 2 days

Sutho wrote:

Pretty sure in "Alarm Starboard" by Geoffrey Brooke he describes seeing the Ark Royal pitching at sea from the Nelson and wrote that her underwater hull looked to be a brown colour.

Not the hull, just the forefoot as I read it:

(Page 7) ��heaving her bow right out of the sea so that the angular brown-painted forefoot jutted clear�..�

Brooke records the incident with Ark Royal as being two weeks into the war, so roughly mid September 1939. Her previous docking was July 1939 and the relevant D495 docking report tells us that at that time Ark Royal�s bottom was coated with Moravia paints, but this particular report does not tell us the colour of the paints used.

First on would have been two coats of protective. Moravia protective came in grey and red. Say the grey went on first and red second. We don�t know the hue of Moravia �red� but my suspicion, based on the builder�s model of KGV, is that Moravia�s red protective was actually quite brown.

After that came the top coat, the anti-fouling. Moravia anti fouling came in grey or black. The bow area was one of the areas of the bottom subject to most wear from water friction, the forefoot perhaps particularly so. Say the anti fouling there was beginning to wear off and the top layer of protective was showing through�. that could account for what Brooke recalled when he wrote his book 43 years later.

dick wrote:For those with an interest in the colour of ships' bottoms I have now had a chance to view the D495 docking reports for Ark Royal. It turns out that Ark Royal was a Moravia ship for her ship's bottom paints, both for the protective and for the all-important outermost anti-fouling coatings. Moravia's anti-fouling only came in grey or black. In the in-service dry dock and sinking photos of Ark Royal the bottom is clearly lighter than the (black) boot topping.

The D495s record her bottom treatments with Moravia as follows:
Jan 1937- protective applied
April 1937 - launched in this with no anti-fouling coat
April/May 1938 - docked and re-coated in protective and anti-fouling
June 1938 - docked and touched up
November 1938 - docked and touched up
July 1939 - docked, protective touched up, anti-fouling re-coated
February 1940 - docked, full re-treatment with two coats of protective and one coat of anti-fouling. On this D495 the colour of the anti-fouling was actually recorded as �Moravia Grey� so there is no ambiguity on the question of the colour of her bottom
October 1940 - docked, full re-treatment with two coats of protective and two coats of anti-fouling

Pretty sure in "Alarm Starboard" by Geoffrey Brooke he describes seeing the Ark Royal pitching at sea from the Nelson and wrote that her underwater hull looked to be a brown colour.

CLASSIC WARSHIPS wrote:I have tried to follow all of the discussion about the painting of HMS Ark Royal, so if I have missed something important, my apologies !

I have been reading the discussion about the question as to HMS Ark Royal's camouflage painting with some interest.
Some time ago, several of us "USN Paint" enthusiast noticed a problem with some of the painting of some of the USN vessels.
Ron Smith found a report stating the there was an adhesion problem and that certain measures had to be taken to get the paint to stick.
This was a situation where the new dark grey and blue colors were not sticking to the older Standard Navy Grey, a very light grey, with some gloss to it.

To me, this looks like the situation with the paint on the HMS Ark Royal at the time of her sinking ?
The area of splotchy looking painting looks like the situation with the USN paints ?
I also noticed something similar happening to the HMS Prince of Wales and her last camouflage painting.

Steve Wiper
http://www.classicwarships.com

Hi Steve,

The short answer is "yes". It's important to first understand some nuances in terminology. Admiralty Pattern 507A and 507C strictly speaking were Rate Book formulae for linseed oil paint made from Rate Book ingredients. By 1941, there were also significant quantities of civilian manufactured paints, including equivalent shades to 507A and 507C. Even then these would loosely be referred to as 507A or 507C on documents describing colour and nowadays very few appreciate the distinction. This is important as these civilian manufactured paints were (at least initially) oil-bound water paints, a type of early emulsion. These did have documented adhesion problems especially where applied thickly or in multiple coats where it could peel away from the dissimilar surface below quite easily.

I have tried to follow all of the discussion about the painting of HMS Ark Royal, so if I have missed something important, my apologies !

I have been reading the discussion about the question as to HMS Ark Royal's camouflage painting with some interest.
Some time ago, several of us "USN Paint" enthusiast noticed a problem with some of the painting of some of the USN vessels.
Ron Smith found a report stating the there was an adhesion problem and that certain measures had to be taken to get the paint to stick.
This was a situation where the new dark grey and blue colors were not sticking to the older Standard Navy Grey, a very light grey, with some gloss to it.

To me, this looks like the situation with the paint on the HMS Ark Royal at the time of her sinking ?
The area of splotchy looking painting looks like the situation with the USN paints ?
I also noticed something similar happening to the HMS Prince of Wales and her last camouflage painting.

Steve Wiper
www.classicwarships.com

Hi All,

Hi Richard, many thanks for that, look forward to more info as and when, but with this research added to our new knowledge on Hood's bottom colour, and Jamie's accurate colourcoats ships paints, modellers will have an even better opportunity to create more representative models of their RN ships.

Many congratulations on your research,
Best wishes
Cag.

Fantastic Richard, thanks!

For those with an interest in the colour of ships' bottoms I have now had a chance to view the D495 docking reports for Ark Royal. It turns out that Ark Royal was a Moravia ship for her ship's bottom paints, both for the protective and for the all-important outermost anti-fouling coatings. Moravia's anti-fouling only came in grey or black. In the in-service dry dock and sinking photos of Ark Royal the bottom is clearly lighter than the (black) boot topping.

The D495s record her bottom treatments with Moravia as follows:
Jan 1937- protective applied
April 1937 - launched in this with no anti-fouling coat
April/May 1938 - docked and re-coated in protective and anti-fouling
June 1938 - docked and touched up
November 1938 - docked and touched up
July 1939 - docked, protective touched up, anti-fouling re-coated
February 1940 - docked, full re-treatment with two coats of protective and one coat of anti-fouling. On this D495 the colour of the anti-fouling was actually recorded as �Moravia Grey� so there is no ambiguity on the question of the colour of her bottom
October 1940 - docked, full re-treatment with two coats of protective and two coats of anti-fouling

Is there a missing partial deck at the stern for this ship? There are six half walls installed to support it.

hello,

as it seems (at least to my eyes) that Ark royal did have 2 Taylors type anchors (?) starboard side and one Wasteney Smith type anchor (?) portside, and that 1/350 merit anchors are known to be too small, do you know if there are some aftermarket replacement parts existing ?

The AFO is quite specific. It was for the flight decks:

Howdy.

All I know about this stuff is that it was introduced by AFO 1949 in 1933 which was entitled "PAINT FOR SPRAYING OF FLIGHT DECKS (AIRCRAFT CARRIERS)", and its formulation is given in the Rate Book in 1933 as well as 1937(??) again but with the pigmentation adjusted as the RN had switched to a new black which was much stronger staining than the old black paint which was used, and the black was reduced accordingly to preserve the resultant shade.

I lost my copy of AFO1949/33 in a hard drive crash and haven't been back to Kew to retrieve one yet. (it's not included in the set sent to the RAN and available to download from there, possibly because there were no aircraft carriers in the RAN and it would have been irrelevant). I don't recall that AFO1949/33 said anything either way about the choice of colour and its purpose, although I suppose a dark olive isn't the worst colour one could choose to conceal from above against the dirty coloured Home Waters in overcast conditions.

There is nothing special about Admiralty Pattern 631 Bronze Grey as a paint to make it more or less suited to flight decks. The AFO merely prescribed its use for aircraft carrier flight decks and gave instruction on how it was to be used in conjunction with red lead primer and saw dust to create a surface for a flight deck. I dare say the mechanical properties of the flight deck is so far as the tyres on aircraft wheels would care would have been identical using any of the linseed oil paints they used.

Was Bronze-Gray meant as a camo measure? Was it used on gun sponson decks and catwalks (ie. all horizontal surfaces), or were these deck gray, and Bronze Gray only on the flight deck?

So...that's just the same as US Olive Drab!!