The Ship Model Forum

Well, true to the promise I made on my Tug build, I have finally started building a ship with the intent of constructing the entire hull from steel.
I purchased the plans from Windjammers and after getting them enlarged to the right size, I am finally under way.
A history of the ship..

USS Mitscher (DL-2/DDG-35), named for Admiral Marc "Pete" Mitscher USN (1887–1947), was the lead ship of her class of destroyer of the United States Navy.
Originally designated DD-927, she was laid down by the Bath Iron Works Corporation at Bath, Maine on 3 October 1949, reclassified as a destroyer leader and designated DL-2 on 2 February 1951, launched on 26 January 1952 by Mrs. Marc A. Mitscher, widow of Admiral Mitscher and commissioned on 15 May 1953, Commander Terrell H. W. Connor in command.
Mitscher was initially homeported in Newport, R.I., and became the operational flagship for Commander Destroyer Flotilla Two.[1] After initial shakedown exercises off Cuba, Mitscher returned to Boston for further modification, followed by another shakedown cruise to Guantanamo Bay, ending 31 August 1954. Homeported thereafter at Newport, R.I., she conducted exercises off the east coast until 3 January 1956, when she sailed on a good-will cruise to England, Germany, and France, returning to Rhode Island 10 February. For the next 5 years, she continued her east coast operations, deploying annually either to the northern or eastern Atlantic for NATO exercises.
In 1955, Mitscher cruised the Caribbean with Commander Destroyer Force, US Atlantic Fleet embarked. In 1958, President Eisenhower broke his personal flag in Mitscher during the America's Cup Challenge Races off Newport. Mitscher journeyed to South America on a four-month cruise in 1959, and subsequently cruised to Northern Europe for extended NATO Exercises.
In November 1960, the ship's homeport was shifted to Naval Station Charleston, SC, where she became the operational flagship of Commander Destroyer Flotilla Six. On 9 February 1961, she departed her new homeport, and steamed to the Mediterranean for her first 6-month tour with the U.S. 6th Fleet. Early in 1961, Mitscher deployed with the Sixth Fleet. During this cruise, Mitscher was flagship for Admiral Anderson, Commander Sixth Fleet. The ship was again transferred to Newport, R.I. in 1962, where she again became the flagship of Commander Cruiser Destroyer Flotilla Two. Such deployments over the next 4 years involved her in further NATO exercises as well as 6th Fleet exercises. Spring 1964, departed Newport, RI for 6-month tour with 6th Fleet. In August 1964, while in the Mediterranean, she stood off Cyprus to aid in the evacuation of American nationals, and then steamed through the Suez Canal to patrol the Red Sea and the Persian Gulf. Returned to Mediterranean for 4-month tour with U.S. 6th Fleet in 1965, returned to Newport, RI December 1965.
On 2 March 1966, Mitscher departed Newport for the Philadelphia Naval Shipyard. There, she was converted to a guided missile destroyer at between 18 March 1966 and 29 June 1968 and designated DDG-35. In late August 1970, Mitscher departed Norfolk for Mediterranean operations with COMDESRON One Four aboard. Her next deployment was in July 1971 as a member of Destroyer Squadron Twenty-Six, the "Mod Squad". Mitscher entered the Norfolk Naval Shipyard in March 1972 for overhaul. Mitscher was decommissioned and stricken from the Naval Vessel Register on 1 June 1978, and sold for scrap in July 1980.
The original ship was 496 feet long, so the model will be 2.09 meters. A reasonable size. I am aiming to complete the ship to pre '66 configuration.
So yesterday I cut out all the appropriate templates I would need, today I got busy with the cutting and cut out the "fairing lines" (Don't know if that is the right term, please correct me if I am wrong) of the waterline and the keel piece, I cut 2 of the bulkheads and fitted them, only have 12 to go. Now some pics...
Tomorrow, the rest of the frames should be cut and fitted to the hull.

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One thing you never want to hear from the Ammo tech - "Oops"

Hi, Gav!
Congratulation with your new steel project!
It is a interesting method. Could you, please, make a very close picture of welding row on the ship frame?

With best regards-
Anatoly

G'day Anatoly,
No worries can and will do, not ready to weld it yet. Will be using a MIG welder when I do.
It is all held together by slotting the bulkheads and clipping them in to place in the "fairing line" (or waterline cross-section), then slotting in the keel. The combination of these parts makes it quite rigid and quite light. I have completed all the cutting of bulkheads and fitted all of them. The total weight so far is 2.145kg. I would say that it is comparable to timber at this stage in weight.
So, here are the pics...


At this stage it has taken 2 full days to cut out these pieces. From here I have to cut a volume of 12mm wide strips that will be welded to the edge of the frames to create a broad faced area that the hull plating will attach to. This will, in effect, make all the frame components into "T" sections and adding much more strength. So may be a few days before I get to post any more pics, but as I get bits done, will send what I can.
Regards to all,
Gav

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One thing you never want to hear from the Ammo tech - "Oops"

Ooops, nearly forgot. Many will notice that the pattern I cut the keel from had the sonar dome on the front. I have elected to attempt to complete the ship in the configuration pre '66.
The attached pic shows the USS Mitscher on the day of her launch, as is obvious, she didn't have a sonar dome fitted at this time.

I have made contact with the Maine Maritime Museum and am attempting to gain further information as to her initial fit-out and when certain parts were removed or added so that I can make an accurate representation. If anyone out there knows anyone who served on her, please let me know as I would like to get as much info as possible.
Regards to all,
Gav

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One thing you never want to hear from the Ammo tech - "Oops"

Hey All,
Well another instalment at last. I have done some welding and have welded the Fairing line , bulkheads and keel together and then welded half of the rib caps on so far. The ribs caps all need the oxy put on them to true them in yet, so, thus far, this is raw work and not finished off yet.


I will be putting in the engine mounts soon and the gearbox mount before the skin goes on.
Till next time...
Gav

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One thing you never want to hear from the Ammo tech - "Oops"

I foresee a truckload of Bondo in your future—just kidding! It looks really good so far, and it does seem to make more sense to make such a ship in that scale out of steel rather than wood and fiberglass. Lasts longer, is generally sturdier, and you don't have to put in quite as much effort to get it watertight. For all I know (which isn't much), a steel hull might be lighter than a wooden one since you don't have to reinforce it nearly as much.

But then, this is the rambling praise of a total n00b!

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Sean Nash, ACG (aircraft camo gestapo)

On the ways:
1/200 Trumpeter HMS Nelson
1/700 Tamiya USS Yorktown CV-5

In the stash:
1/35 Italiari PT-109
1/35 Tamiya "Pibber" Patrol Boat
1/350 Trumpeter USS Yorktown CV-10

G'day Goodwood, I am just experimenting. I like the idea of pushing the boundaries and seeing what I can do, so far, so good. I have plenty of steel due to other interests I have, and so, instead of buying expensive balsa and plywood, I just use what I have laying around... but this is a prelude to building a very large lady (battleship) in this scale or toying with an even larger scale, but I don't want to risk the boss getting angry with me, so I am building a relatively small one first. So if it works, awesome If not... hello scrapyard, at least it will be worth something as scrap.
My attempt to get it watertight will be to use solder to join the hull plates to the rib caps, the hull plates will be 1mm steel plate and I factored this thickness in when cutting out the bulkheads, so committed there. As I will be using a steam engine on this one, (I have also started building that, when I have some pics of it's progress, will post them too) I have to put a lot of construction inside her to take all the air cylinders, engine mounts and gearbox mounts... Lot of work and as I am creating as I go, should be an exercise in frustration in the not too distant future. The Bondo, well, yeah, that thought has actually crossed my mind, But all going well ( and all fingers and toes crossed) the soldering will go off without a hitch and It will look really authentic. Just hope it floats in the end... The weight is starting to go up considerably already. It is at 3.748kg, and only half the rig caps are in, considering the un-welded frame was 2.145kg, I believe the finished hull, without any fittings , props or ... anything, will be likely about 6kg. On the positive side, at least I won't need much ballast.
Regards, Gav

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One thing you never want to hear from the Ammo tech - "Oops"

G'day all,
Was a busy boy yesterday and cut up 1.6mm plate into strips... I took some pics and think they show the progress quite well. One note though is that the pieces all need some finishing with the oxy set to make sure all is trued up. This is going to take a while, so, the progress may be a little slow from here. These caps are what the solder will be stuck to to give a bigger bearing face for the hull plates to adhere to. The weight now can't be measured on my kitchen scales, so I use the bathroom scales. From them I get a weight of 5kg...

Also, the welding was done in such a way as to limit bending. As many would know, when welding, the job bends in the direction of the welded side, this has something to do with the rapid heating of the welding process and a slightly greater shinkage as everything cools. So to limit this, I use spot welds. Also, if you are doing long welds on thin material, it will melt away and there will be huge holes opening up and foul language will invariably follow. If you are proficient with a Dillon oxy torch, (which I am not yet) you can do full welding and it will be as neat as the real thing. I will get one of these little beauties one day and play, till then, we have this method. In the pics you will notice that the keel cap was welded on both sides in spots ( you can see the burn mark between the welds), this was an attempt to neutralise the pull effect from the welds, on the bulkheads and the fairing line, they were only welded on one side

The caps are held in place with a number of small "G" clamps, 2"and 3" mainly and a number of vice grips. After each cap was placed on, I would check the straightness and flatness of the keel line. For line I seem to be on the money, for the flatness, I am within 2 mm over the entire length. We shall see if there is any distortion after the trueing process. Fingers crossed
Regards,
Gav

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One thing you never want to hear from the Ammo tech - "Oops"

Hi,Gav!
Thank you for pictures. The method you selected is more then impressive!
With best wishes -
Anatoly

Thanks Anatoly, Still haven't trued it all up, have been building the steam engine, about half way through it at the moment. Am building 2, a spare. No pics at present as I haven't got anything assembled. I am getting a set of taps and dies for 2, 2.5 and 3mm bolts, the wife is getting them for me for Christmas, so I am just making parts and will start assembly soon.... Just have to hope it works
So will post some pics soon. Have a safe and Merry Christmas all and I look forward to catching you all early in the New Year.
Regards,
Gav

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One thing you never want to hear from the Ammo tech - "Oops"

Gav,

You are putting a lot of work into this ship, including the steam engine, and the materials you are using are relatively heavy. I was wondering if you have calculated the maximum weight to get it to float at the water line?

I ask this because I have seen some builds that were beautiful models but total failures as R/C models because they could not be made to float correctly because of too much weight.

You should be able to make a rough calculation of the volume of the hull below the waterline. Then multiply this volume by the weight of water - that is the absolute maximum weight you can have without the model floating too deep in the water.

Figuring the maximum topside weight is trickier - involving the genter of gravity, righting moments, etc. But if you don't want it turning turtle and floating upside down (at least for a while before it sinks) it would be a good idea to work this out. Too heavy topside weight has doomed some models.

****

As an aside, I know a fellow who is planning a 1:32 USS Missouri - about 28 feet (8.5 meters) long - built out of steel. He is currently designing the entire thing in SolidWorks, including a "floating drydock" trailer to haul it in.

Phil

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A collision at sea will ruin your entire day. Aristotle

The easiest way to get a good figure on how heavy a model should be to float on the waterline is just divide the actual displacement of the real ship and divide it by the scale³ so in this case by 72 x 72 x 72 = 373248 since your scale is applied in 3 dimensions and that makes a volume. That is of course, if your hull shape is accurate. So for a 4271t ship that would be 4271 000 kg / 373248 = 11.44 kg, the 4271 t is standard displacement of mitcher according to wiki, I'm not an expert, so that might be wrong, but I'm sure you get the point.

As Phil pointed out, the topside structure will be quite crucial when it comes to weight.
Great job so far, it's not a very forgiving material to work with in such scales! I wouldn't want to have a collision with this model though

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The merchant shipyard

G'day Phil and Neptune,
Yes, that thought had crossed my mind as well as visions of a brand new model destroyer imitating the Great Barrier Reef Apart from the point of view of just trying something different, I have reasoned that with the frame currently at 5kg (as per the bathroom scales) and from here a skin soldered to it and engine in should be no more than 2.5kg. Total weight about 7.5kg to that point. at 2.1meters and waterline at 60mm and beam at 210mm, that gives a rectangular box of 26.46kg, due to the shape of the vessel, obviously a proportion of this would be removed. My maths isn't good enough to calculate it exactly, but it should be somewhere between half to a third of this, That would be an upper limit of 13.23kg and a lower limit of 8.82kg. I hope to be able to juggle the weights around in there somewhere. If the maths works out to be a quarter, she is a reef and I will either build a bigger fish tank or have a static model
Either way, the adventure will certainly be enjoyable. The only other option would be to use a thinner plate like 1mm rather than the 1.6 for the frame that I have constructed so far. It is a lot more flexible and less forgiving in the welding process, but would reduce the weight by approximately 35%. I have the grand intent of using brass shim for the entire superstructure and what ever I can get my hands on for the fittings.
Your thoughts on this gentlemen?
At least once I have the skin on and do a float test, we can determine if the project will continue as an RC model, given away as a static model to a Returned Services League establishment or be scrap, except for the motor of course
I eagerly await your input or scary maths.
Regards,
Gav

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One thing you never want to hear from the Ammo tech - "Oops"

G'day all, been back into it. Been working on the motor some more and just wanted to show a few of the components I have been making and finally assembling. The main components such as cylinder block, crank webs, stuffing boxes etc are all made from brass, the pillars, piston rods, guides etc are all made of Stainless steel. The eccentrics are the only thing made of mild steel.
This first two pics show the components.

This view shows the Engine frame in an oblique view

The next view show the cylinder block sitting on the top of the engine frame ( with the help of a finger)

As can be seen, the motor is in very early days of construction. I have many more parts that I haven't shown here that have been made ( I am building 2 of these at the same time). At the moment, the height of the motor as it sits on the table to the top of the cylinder block is 111mm, with the base and the top of the cylinder heads, likely to add another 20mm. Lots of drilling and tapping to go. Already broken 2 taps (M2.5 x .4) in the stainless rods so far...
Any rate, as I get more assembled, will drop a couple of pics on the page to update.
Till next time, happy modelling
Gav

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One thing you never want to hear from the Ammo tech - "Oops"

hey all, Well, was going to play with the oxy today and true up the hull, but played with the milling machine instead. made a few more parts and fit them to the frame...
The engine frame with the cylinder block bolted on and the cross head slides fitted.

Have made up the bearing blocks too, they have the oil cup in the top and have the mount holes ready to tap, will have to wait till the new taps arrive.

The lion share of time went into marking out and drilling the piston valve blocks. Making 2 engines means a double up of all parts, here there is a blind hole up the lenghth of the block with a series of ports and bolt holes... complex, but a necessary component that the eccentrics will operate.

Here are another 2 cross head slides.

If I get a chance, will try to get the crank webs sorted, they are half completed.
I know this is a ship building site, so if machining up an engine is not really desired, let me know and I will just post once the motor is finished and installed.
Regards,
Gav

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One thing you never want to hear from the Ammo tech - "Oops"

Hey all, Been working on the truing of the hull. A slow job that one, hope to have some pics next week.
Also done a bit more on the motor... starting to look like one anyway, discovered there is a little bit of lathe work to do on the bearing blocks, the crank turns, but is a little tight, need to shave the faces on the bearing blocks

Now a slightly different view in my paw...

Now I have gotten this far with the motor, I can build the engine mounts and weld them into the hull. Easier to do without the hull plates on. Still have postons, piston rods, con rods, piston valves, glands, cylinder caps, piston valve clamps and glands to go. Very fiddly jobs but the essential to get right ones. One small note, the motor is a lot heavier than I thought it was going to be, it is coming in at 1.056kg, and there is a fair bit left to go on it. Perhaps a further 300 grams.
Will have to think about the gearbox really soon. One motor driving two screws... Boy, all this weight... grrrr, she is going to be heavy... at least I shouldn't need ballast
Till next time,
Be safe.

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One thing you never want to hear from the Ammo tech - "Oops"

Hey all, been a wee busy on other things lately, a real pain when work gets in the way of a hobby
Consequently, haven't done much, but enough to show there is progress in the right direction. What I have for you today is the two motors to the point where pistons, cylinder caps, cylinder glands (complete with o-ring) are all made, just waiting on the 2.5mm taps so I can bolt them on.
On the motor that is earmarked for the ship I have the engine mounts bolted on. I will be welding these onto the bulkheads soon but will use the assembly to ensure all the holes stay in alignment.

The engine mounts are 20 x 4 mm mild steel, drill and tapped for the engine bolts and drilled for the 4 bolts holding the posts on.
The next view is of the underside of the motor, shows the glands sitting in the right spots. Need to remake the crosshead slides on both motors ( 4 in all, only half a days work )

Hope to get a bit more substantial work done on the hull soon, picked up some copper sheet for the hull plates, will be easier to work, will see how that goes in a weight comparison... Any thoughts?
Till next time, be safe and happy sailing.
Gav

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One thing you never want to hear from the Ammo tech - "Oops"

Good day to all. Been a while since I have had an opportunity to continue the model ( massive change in work will do that )
The advice from Neptune and Phil was completely spot on and after doing the maths and working out the square area of the hull (I used a piece of paper and cut and sticky taped together and then worked out an area from there) and relating that to the amount of material I was going to use on the plating of the hull, steam engine and air bottle, discovered she would be an outstanding artificial reef.... so, keeping the frame and then using 2 layers of balsa 1mm inner skin and 1.5mm outer skin), I have plated the hull and she comes in at a hefty 6.5 kg (scales no more accurate than somewhere in between +/- .5 kg)
Here are some pics I have taken today to show the progress.


Working with the steel on a model like this has proved to be quite good. The steel is quite thin and if using the right glue, no adhesion problems and the hull always remains quite stiff and as long as the original set up was right, the model remains true.
Good to catch up with you all again, hope to have some more pics to show soon before another 11 months goes by.

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One thing you never want to hear from the Ammo tech - "Oops"

wow a model made from steel ,what an undertaking,and the engines truly amazing,great work

Blimey, yeah that would be a nasty surprise had you committed to a full steel hull! Still, good to see you back at it after such a long time!

Maybe steel would still work for whichever battleship you decide to build (as long as it's HMS Nelson or Rodney)?

_________________
Sean Nash, ACG (aircraft camo gestapo)

On the ways:
1/200 Trumpeter HMS Nelson
1/700 Tamiya USS Yorktown CV-5

In the stash:
1/35 Italiari PT-109
1/35 Tamiya "Pibber" Patrol Boat
1/350 Trumpeter USS Yorktown CV-10