The Ship Model Forum

I recently bought an Aoshima HMS Victorious to replace an earlier one.
I would like to source the Aoshima photo etch but they seem to have disappeared.
It's product number is 051054. Anyone?

I can send from Japan if you happy to pay with Paypal.
Regards,

_________________
Gernot Hassenpflug
Find out how it works, then functionality and limits

I'm pulling together material to build a model of Victorious to correspond with my almost completed model of USS Wasp. The period is October 1941, when both carriers were operating from Hvalfjord in Iceland.

The camouflage for Wasp was quite easy to determine: Measure 12 (the straight-line division, not the modified version carried later), although the aircraft proved rather a surprise, since it is very evident they were light gray overall with stars marked on the upper port and lower starboard wings and fuselage side only - a scheme I thought had been superceded with blue-gray topsides and six stars in February/March 1941.

The camouflage for Victorious poses more problems for me. Alan Raven has one version of the colours (although his pattern does not quite match the photographs) and Malcolm Wright has two contenders (both not quite matching the photographs, either), neither of which uses the same colours as Raven. I think I can deal with the pattern issues, but what were the colours? In black-and-white, there is a very pale shade (possibly white, since it's very light in direct sunlight) an intermediate shade that tonally is very close to the undersides of the embarked Fulmars, and a dark shade tonally similar to their upper surfaces. Matters can become a little confusing due to strong shadows cast by various sponsons and the knuckle in the hull, but I'm pretty sure there are only three colours. I also have no idea how the flight deck was painted, since all the images I have seem to have been take too close to the water.

The most surprising thing I noticed is how pristine the paintwork is. Either Victorious was freshly painted or the quality of the materials was very good.

Does anyone know more certainly what the colours were (Wright states that the first design was developed by Admiralty officials, but I don't know on what basis)?

Thank you,
Maurice

Malcolm Wright's Vol 2 of Warship Camouflage page 121 indicates 507a, 507c and MS3 which seems reasonable. The pale shade maybe 507c which would look lighter against 507a. Deck might be 507a. Rich

The intermediate shade may possibly be the 50/50 emergency mix of HFG and LG. In terms of tone either MS3 or B6 could be contenders also. B6 was a bit darker and less greenish than most currently believe it. I think the darkest shade is probably HFG. The lightest is likely LG/507C.

Non-slip flight deck greys in the usual RN colour palette became available during 1941.

_________________
James Duff
Sovereign Hobbies Ltd
http://www.sovereignhobbies.co.uk

Current build:
HMS Imperial D09 1/350
http://www.shipmodels.info/mws_forum/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=167151

Maurice, the attached link my be of some help, http://modelshipwrights.kitmaker.net/mo ... _id=136118

Al.

This thread opens an old wound for me

Fast forward to mid-1943. Might Victorious' flight deck still have been in these colours when she took up her role as "USS Robin" in the SW Pacific?
Robin's hull is simple USN (after overhaul/mods), but the flight deck? Aye, there's the rub.

_________________
Harold

Thanks to all of you for your assistance - much appreciated.

I do not know what colours were used on Vicotrious's deck in the Pacific in 1943. I do know that there were at least three shades - light, medium, and dark - and they might well have corresponded with those used in the previous disruptive scheme for the hull and upperworks. There also was a square block, possibly in white, applied centrally just abaft the funnel. The pattern published in Malcolm Wright's book bears only a passing resemblance to that shown in quite a few overhead shots of the carrier (which is one reason prompting me to start asking the original question).

One structural change I've not seen mentioned is that a roughly triangular 'ramp' was fitted behind the aftermost of the port forward 4.5" turrets to fill in the gap for 'errant' aircraft, and there is at least one shot that shows tyre marks on it, so it obviously worked!

Incidentally, Victorious was not "re-named" USS Robin. Robin was the carrier's radio callsign, just as Cactus was Saratoga's.

Maurice

Understood; hence my use of quotation marks with the name.

The best shot I've yet found of the flight deck during SW Pacific ops:



There appear to be remnants, at least, of the RN finish. The light block you refer to appears to have been a false or decoy "elevator".

Well spotted on the added triangular ramp; I've been so obsessed with the colors, that got past me!

_________________
Harold

Hi,

In 1941, Victorious' camo scheme carried onto the flight deck and even merged into the island. This has been done on a number of models depicting her in 1941-42.

I modeled her with the flight deck in MS3 with a 507A disruptive pattern.

Here's a photo of her from above that should help - middle right below:


http://acepilots.com/ships/illustrious.html

There is a Blueprints drawing:

https://www.the-blueprints.com/blueprin ... 281941%29/

I'm not sure they have the colours depicted correctly, but the flight deck pattern of "splotches" seems to be somewhat consistent with the photo. But, it is possible that the precise pattern varied over time with repaints? Of course, photos outrank drawings hands down!

Paul

_________________
Hard a starboard.......Shoot!

I would not give too much credence to the Blueprints drawing of the camouflage pattern. For a start, its depiction of the pattern on the starboard side of the island is closer to that actually carried on the port side, and vice versa, and the pattern at the bow is way off, too, all of which renders it rather dubious.

The Hvalfjord series of photographs tends to support the idea that the colours used for the hull and upperworks camouflage carried over onto the flight deck, since there is a mid-range tone section on either side and across the upper part of the bow that clearly carries over onto the round-down (this panel is completely missing from the Blueprints diagram). I would agree that there was a two-tone disruptive pattern on the flight deck but the shadow of the island in the vertical overhead image in the previous post obscures whether it met the pattern on the island or not, and other shots I've examined all are either too washed out by light or have aircraft inconveniently parked in exactly the wrong place to allow one to tell.

Maurice

A short while ago I mistakenly started a discussion of Victorious’s camouflage colours in late 1941 on the general forum (perhaps the moderators should move it here). It answered most of my questions but it also brought up some new ones. Going through the hundred or more photographs I’ve accumulated of Victorious during World War II generated some interesting results and, of course, more questions.

Victorious wore the same camouflage, well-illustrated in Alan Raven’s book, from commissioning until after the Pedestal operation. It is possible it was a four-colour scheme for the first few months, but photographs clearly show that it was three colours only from late summer 1941 onwards. There also were minor variations in the pattern, no doubt due to periodic maintenance. The consensus seems to be that the colours were 507C, MS3, and 507A (I use the ‘normal’ designations because I don’t want to get into a discussion that has taken up plenty of space elsewhere), with the flight deck camouflaged in MS3 with a rather odd pattern in 507A that is, at least to my eye, reminiscent of the contemporary Army ‘Mickey Mouse ears’ scheme.

Victorious refitted from late September to mid-October 1942 and then provided cover for Operation Torch in November. The ship was ‘lent’ to the US Navy for service in the South Pacific. To that end, the carrier was subject to a refit at Norfolk Navy Yard that primarily added a large number of light anti-aircraft weapons and squared off and flattened the stern round-down. Victorious then transitted the Panama Canal and proceeded to Pearl Harbor for further modifications: mainly adding more anti-aircraft weapons, heavier arresting gear, and a roughly triangular ‘ramp’ behind the aftermost 4.5” forward mounting on the port side.

US Navy photographs taken the day Victorious arrived at Pearl Harbor show the ship in a different three-colour pattern from that worn originally. Aerial photographs taken after the ship was repainted in Measure 21 (Navy Blue 5-N) show the flight deck wearing a completely different and bolder two-colour pattern (shades unknown, but possibly still MS3 and 507A).

After serving in the South Pacific, Victorious returned to the UK via Pearl Harbor, San Diego, and Norfolk. The images Rick E. Davis uncovered of Victorious at Argentia on September 20, 1943 show that somewhere along the way the ship was repainted into yet another British (probably) three-colour scheme. This pattern seems to have been retained after the ship’s refit at Liverpool in late 1943/early 1944 as demonstrated by photographs of Victorious on passage during Operation Tungsten in April 1944.

In June, Victorious was deployed to the Eastern Fleet. There seems to be a remarkable dearth of images of Victorious’s service with the Eastern and British Pacific fleets but, at some point, the carrier was repainted into the ‘standard’ scheme of light grey overall with a darker panel amidships. I strongly suspect that a lot of the other suggested schemes of a blocky two-colour ‘dazzle’ pattern or a dark panel running the length of the ship below the main deck are misinterpretations of shadows created by bright sunlight on an essentially light-coloured vessel.

All of this material, however, raises a host of new questions:

When was the camouflage pattern the ship wore on arrival at Pearl Harbor applied - during the October 1942 refit or sometime later? What was the pattern on the port side? Was the deck pattern applied at the same time or was it done when the ship was given Measure 21? I have been unable to find any photographs of Victorious during Operation Torch (which would answer the first question), port side views during this period, or overhead shots in this camouflage.

When and where did Victorious acquire the scheme carried from at least September 1943 – Pearl Harbor, San Diego, Norfolk? I have not found any views of the port side or the flight deck for this period, either, so I need more information for both aspects, too. I’m also looking for more definitive information about Victorious’s colours during the year from August 1944.

Finally, there’s the very strange pattern on the ship’s flight deck in the oft-reproduced aerial view of Victorious replenishing under way in the South Pacific. This is part of a series and examination of the collection leads me to suspect that the underlying pattern is the same as that visible in the shots of Victorious off Hawai’i in Measure 21. The major changes are (a) the addition of a very light (possibly white) block abreast the after end of the island (usually considered to be a false elevator to confuse attackers), (b) a narrowing of the dark sweep of the original pattern towards the fore end of the island, and (c) an intermediate-tone applied rectangularly from the bow to amidships that leaves a strip down the middle back from the forward elevator (the width of the elevator) of the earlier pattern. This scheme is so strange that I suggest that it can be explained by saying that perhaps the deck was being repainted.

I apologise for the length of this post but I hope it will generate some answers to these questions.


Thank you,
Maurice

A semi-related question; how was the air-wing painted in The SW Pacific? Victorious had picked up US aircraft, but were they in standard USN colors or lend-lease painted planes?

Also, Cactus was Guadalcanal, did Sara later use the same one?

OK. Reposting from the Camo CASF.

I can not provide much info on HMS VICTORIOUS camouflage, but can answer one of your questions.

While researching the photo that showed what turned out to be HMS VICTORIOUS at Argentia, I found the following info.

Based on what is supplied on the ... http://www.armouredcarriers.com ... website;

HMS VICTORIOUS ended USN operations and departed Noumea on 31 July 1943.

HMS VICTORIOUS arrived at Pearl Harbor on 9 August 1943, but only stayed for a short period and departed on 12 August 1943. Not likely she was repainted at this time.

HMS VICTORIOUS stopped briefly at San Diego to drop-off personnel, but since there were no major facilities at San Diego for working on a carrier, it is unlikely she was repainted here.

HMS VICTORIOUS arrived at Norfolk Navy Yard on 1 September 1943 and was there for two weeks (according to other records, she was in NorNY 3-15 September 1943) getting some US equipment (like SG radar) upgrades and having other USN equipment removed. I believe that this two week period would be the most likely place and period that she was repainted. Norfolk Navy Yard had and did continue to do work on ILLUSTRIOUS class carriers and quite likely had a supply of RN paints for painting them.

As an interesting aside, from 31 August 1943 through December HMS INDOMITABLE was also at Norfolk Navy Yard as seen in this close-crop view dated 20 October 1943. It appears that she is having some repainting done.

From what I've read Saratoga continued using Cactus into the New Georgia operations.

According to J.D. Brown, Carrier Operations in World War II, initially the fighters were of the Grumman Martlet IV model, but by the time of the well-known 'underway replenishment' series (undated), replacements came from US Navy stocks of F4F-4's. Furthermore, about two-thirds of Saratoga's VF-5 (crews and aircraft) eventually transferred to Victorious (and most of the TBF's and crews moved to Saratoga). All the TBF's came from US Navy stocks, too.

The series shows Martlets, F4F's and TBF's on Victorious's deck. The mix of camouflage schemes is quite interesting. The Martlets seem to be in standard Fleet Air Arm colours: Extra Dark Sea Grey, Dark Slate Grey, and Sky. All the TBF's appear to have Blue-Gray uppersurfaces with Light Gray undersurfaces. About half the F4F's are in the same scheme, but the rest clearly are in the then-new Sea Blue, Intermediate Blue, Insignia White scheme. All the Martlets and the aircraft in the Blue Gray/Light Gray scheme seem still to have stars in six positions (none with the 'bars') but, in the only shot that allows a view of the starboard upper wing of F4F's in the 'new' scheme, these aircraft seem to have only four stars, again with no 'bars'. Since almost all the aircraft either have their wings folded or are visible from very acute angles, it is impossible to tell what, if any, unit markings are carried.

Maurice

Maurice

I built Victorious to depict her at the time of the Bismark action earlier in 41, and pretty much followed the colour advice provided by Alan Raven, though i altered the actual pattern, especially on the deck, to accord with photographs. The best publicly available photos of the early deck pattern i had access to were in Neil McCart’s book on Victorious, and also Hayward’s Fleet Air Arm in Camera. The colours I used were AP507A for the dark grey (actually using Humbrol’s old Tarmac colour) MS3 for the mid toned greenish grey (Colourcoats) and White(Floquil Reefer White) for the very light tone, which is I think meant as a counter-shade fore and aft under the flight deck overhangs, and to reduce silhouetting for the island. I corresponded with Alan on the scheme, especially on the use of white, and on his advice used a bright white rather than the usual RN white for the white sections. I recall he had some evidence that this was so for Victorious.

None of this is absolutely definitive of course, and research has moved on, especially with recent advice on carrier deck colours. Given this I have wondered if the deck pattern was actually AP507A and Bronze grey, not MS3 as i used back in 2006. Tonally, that would seem to fit too.

Cheers

Steve

Steve

I obtained a copy of Neil McCart's book and have to agree that it has a couple of excellent images that give clear views of the early pattern applied to Victorious's flight deck.

I must admit I was rather taken aback by some of the other wartime images (or, at least, their captions and attributions):

The frontispiece, captioned as "...early in her long career." is a very nice shot from the US Navy series of Victorious off Hawai'i in 1943 before deploying to Noumea (I suppose it all depends upon one's definition of 'early').

The photograph on page 16 is not Victorious but Formidable.

The photograph on page 26 is also of Formidable, as is the lower photograph on page 30.

I am certain that the photograph on page 44 is really of Illustrious after the carrier's 1945/1946 refit. (Victorious did not have a modified forward round-down like that clearly visible until the angle-deck refit in the 1950s.)

If the photograph on page 47 really is of Victorious, it is either of the carrier en route to Pearl Harbor or after the stopover at Norfolk on the way back to home waters, since the pattern does not match anything worn by Victorious operationally in the Pacific (Measure 21 was an overall Navy Blue).

all of which makes me rather nervous about the accuracy of the book's information.

Maurice

I agree that there are several photographs in McCart's book that are mis-captioned.

However, the photo on p.30 is not Formidable, but Indomitable (note the eight quarter deck openings and narrow height rear sponson for the 4.5" battery).

The carrier on p.47 is indeed Victorious (from the structure of the island).

Yes, should have mentioned that some care is needed with which photos in McCart’s book are actually Victorious, and which are not. The island, relative depth of the hull and the patterns themselves all tell a tale.

Steve

By the way Maurice

Which kit of Wasp are you building? I have the ISW Wasp in the stash for some years, occasionally take it out, groan, then hide it away again. One day....