The Ship Model Forum

Hi David,
I have a couple questions about the whole rotating thing but my main question is what evidence is there that any bombs fell in between both ships? Johns drawing claims that both the 1st and 2nd attack the 3rd plane managed to split the two ships. I don't recall reading any concussion damage on the port side of Vestal from a near miss. Also, given the location of the bomb hit on Vestal's stern, that would require a VERY tight formation for another bomb to land this close to the Vestal stern shot.

It's doubtful that the charges in the bombs would have caused any concussion damage from a near miss as they were armor piercing and not general purpose. Additionally, several vets on both Arizona and Vestal reported a torpedo hit and large column of water between both ships. See, "Torpedoing of the USS Arizona - Evidence in support of a torpedo hit.

_________________
Tracy White -Researcher@Large

"Let the evidence guide the research. Do not have a preconceived agenda which will only distort the result."
-Barbara Tuchman

Hi Tracy, yes I'm very aware of the torpedo article and theory. My plotted bombs would support that theory. I would like to know what evidence David has that suggest that a bomb, not torpedo caused that splash if one did indeed occur. I persononally have not seen any photographic evidence that a bomb missed the ship on the port bow.
Also, lets not forget that the bomb that struck Vestal's stern penetrated completely through the ship and exited on the port side before exploding. Maybe this is the geyser the crews saw.

NO torpedo was directed at USS AZ or USS VESTAL. Closest torpedo hit removed the rudder of WEEVEE.

David,
I am definitely not in the "torpedo" camp. My argument here is that I do not believe that the lead plane bomb went in-between Ariz and Vestal. The spacing between that bomb and the Vestal bomb would basically be right next to eachother.

Hi Nelson,
I have viewed this film numerous times and I continue to see only 1 splash on the starboard bow. I don't agree with them that you can see 2 in the footage. That doesn't mean though that there weren't 2 on that side of the ship. The one that I do see is indeed just something splashing into the water. It is not an explosion in the water. Is it my #2 bomb? I don't know. It's location matches up nicely with my plotted #2 bomb but why no explosion in the footage? Did this bomb not explode?

Aloha Jeff,
Listening to Hirata Matsumura was wonderful. His description of how bombs could be moved from the VEE to closer together by the pilot movement gave me high regard to the experience of the pilot to bombardier.
HTH

Keep in mind that the water in the harbor was very shallow and was not armored. It's possible that the bomb was a dud or not triggered, or not triggered before it buried itself in the mud.

_________________
Tracy White -Researcher@Large

"Let the evidence guide the research. Do not have a preconceived agenda which will only distort the result."
-Barbara Tuchman

Jeff,

I have the same feelings as you, it looks more like the mooring quay is what they refer to as the 2nd splash. At the 31:00 mark they show some close ups, and it almost looks like there is the remainder of a plume about even with the conning tower. However, for this to be a plume it would be out of line with the V pattern. Maybe somebody with more experience can tell for sure.

Could one plane have failed to drop its payload? Or another not likely but possible option, did two bombs land in the same area next to turret #2? That could explain the missing plume, but again would require the aim to be off.

_________________
-Nelson
Current Project:
1:200 U.S.S. Arizona
1:350 U.S.S. Chicago SSN-721

Future Projects:
All of them!

Interesting to consider that there may be an unexploded bomb from the salvo which sank the Arizona buried in the mud next to her. Wonder if there is a way to scan to see if it might be there?

_________________
https://inchhighguy.wordpress.com/

Aloha All,
Both unexploded torpedoes and bombs are still in the harbor. John DeVirgilio and I have been searching for several decades. I received three phone calls on 2 May 1991 upon discovery of a torpedo in the harbor. The location of this torpedo and three others were confirmed for the base EOD office files prior to the recovery of this particular torp. This torpedo was taken to a reef where a small satchel charge was exploded...the torpedo's warhead made a humongous hole in the reef and a 500 foot plume of water above the reef. The remaining portion of the torp was recovered and is exhibited at the ARIZONA Visitors Center. Thus the topic of ordnance in the harbor is a HIGH priority to the harbor EOD.
Cheers,
David Aiken

Aloha All,
Up in the night...yawn! The bomb hit "between" USS AZ and VESTAL (as shown among blue dots) is too far aft on the ships. This splash is often cited by witnesses as a 'torpedo hit'. In "Torpedoing Pearl Harbor" (Military History, Dec 2001)...the torpedo launches by pilot are given (none aimed for USS AZ)...with the help of PO1c Iwata, and his final launch in the harbor (USS OK) is nailed down and shown in a Kaga strike photo: NO torpedo streaks near USS AZ nor oil leaks from AZ show.

The splash is further cited as to the rear of VESTAL's stern: '...about FRAME 35, PORT SIDE...' of USS AZ.

Hope this helps position the blue dot,
Cheers,
David Aiken

Hi David,
Isn't frame 35 right in the middle of turret #1? Vestal's stern is well beyond that point.

Aloha Jeff,
You are sharp, Jeff... John also disagreed with the initial USS AZ report which I cited. There are damage reports which are more detailed. Alas, I do not have total access to John's records. Gomen nasai,
Shikata ga nai,
Kampai,
David Ai-ken

I haven't really had time to study and refresh my thoughts & opinions on this but I don't want to let this conversation go further without a couple of comments.



For reference - yes.



Please keep in mind that the article you are referencing was written by John and not David.

A bomb exploding underneath a ship is not going to produce a geyser. Bubbles and splash, yes, but the ship would block and deflect the water above the explosion from shooting through the surface.



I'm not sold that you have four of the five hits here - one is missing and I don't think the time between Arizona's hit and explosion were long enough to account for the height/length of the two outboard "misses." I am not saying you are wrong, just that I haven't seen enough evidence to buy off on it yet.

_________________
Tracy White -Researcher@Large

"Let the evidence guide the research. Do not have a preconceived agenda which will only distort the result."
-Barbara Tuchman

Aloha Jeff,
Alas, the 'ideal' VEE formation does not exist. One can not 'spread' the five planes neatly. Having flown in formation with other aircraft, the 'ideal' VEE is not ideal,,,alas. Knowing this and despite the painted upper surface formation guides, the crews were trained to shift their bomb drops for the most focused hope.

Oh, the Kaga strike photo was not immediately before the USS Az explosion. The order of the attack revealed the relation between hits/misses... some five plane formations had to 'go around' for second approaches...one even made a third 'go around'.

The study continues,
Cheers,
David Aiken

"A bomb exploding underneath a ship is not going to produce a geyser. Bubbles and splash, yes, but the ship would block and deflect the water above the explosion from shooting through the surface. "

Hmm! That's quite the assumption. Maybe we should test that theory?

"I'm not sold that you have four of the five hits here - one is missing and I don't think the time between Arizona's hit and explosion were long enough to account for the height/length of the two outboard "misses." I am not saying you are wrong, just that I haven't seen enough evidence to buy off on it yet."

What might those two geyser shaped objects be then if not bomb geysers?

"A bomb exploding underneath a ship is not going to produce a geyser. Bubbles and splash, yes, but the ship would block and deflect the water above the explosion from shooting through the surface."

Torpedoes make one heck of a geyser, and they explode against the side (contact fuse) or under (magnetic fuse) a ship. Why would a bomb be any different?

A dud would be one possible explanation for what is seen in the pictures. Reasonable guesses can be made to localize the likely area to search. Is there a technology which would allow locating a bomb there? Has the Parks Service ever thought about looking?

_________________
https://inchhighguy.wordpress.com/

Aloha All,
In 1982, I interviewed a USS Vestal vet with a unique view. He was below decks when a hole appeared in the overhead, then a hole appeared in the deck...which rapidly had a splash of muddy water from below. Interesting?
Cheers,
David Aiken

Also, John claims that this hit on Arizona's stern came from the 2nd plane from the 1st bomb run. We all know that this bomb glanced off of turret #4 then went through the decks. Some reports say this bomb was a dud and did not explode. If a dud can cause this much disturbance in the water, why can't one that actually exploded (Vestal's stern)? Also, there is absolutely no evidence what so ever in this photo that bomb #3 went in-between Ariz and Vestal. Maybe we are looking at two bombs hitting the water on Ariz starboard side and the 3rd bomb was the one that actually hit the turret.