The Ship Model Forum

Some photos (336) of the last surviving ships of the Cleveland class, USS Little Rock (CLG-4):

USS Little Rock in Buffalo

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What were the main differences between Cleveland CL-55 and Denver CL-58?

Cleveland CL-55 was the first of the class. It had a few features that were different from Denver CL-58. Internally they had cruising turbines for slow economical pre-war steaming. After the start of the war it was decided that the cruisers wouldn't be going anywhere slowly, at least not for long distances, so the cruising turbine was eliminated from all other ships of the class.

Cleveland and Columbia CL-56 had the stern lights (position light, formation light and wake light) attached to the outside of the hull plating. Heavy following seas damaged these, so on all later ships of the class these lights were mounted in a recess in the hull. CAUTION: This recess was not on the center line of the stern. A large I beam inside the plating on the center line supported the aircraft crane, so the recess was offset to the starboard side, with the port side of the recess against the center line I beam.

Cleveland had two twin 40mm guns port and starboard on the O4 level of the forward superstructure just aft of the main battery Mk 34 director. It also had two twin 40mm port and starboard on the O3 level of the aft superstructure about even with the Mk 37 director. Columbia kept the two twin 40mm on the aft superstructure but the forward pair were replaced with two Quad 40mm on the O1 level just forward of midships. Denver had the forward pair of quad 40mm mounted on a columnar structure at the O2 level port and starboard just forward of the forward smoke pipe.

Cleveland and Denver both had boat cranes and a boat farm midships between the funnels initially. These were a fire hazard in combat and contributed to topside weight that could be better used for anti aircraft guns. The boat farms and cranes were soon removed. Some ships had only one boat crane installed on the port side, and later removed. A December 1942 photo (19-N-395431) shows the port crane on the Denver and the boat farm, but it isn't clear if the starboard crane was there. Later photos (80-G-384393) show the cranes and boat farm gone in April 1943. Boat davits were fitted to carry motor whale boats port and starboard. Denver had these outboard the aft 5"/37 centerline mount (Mount 56). It looks as if these davits were midships on the Cleveland, and may have been on the starboard side only. I really am not sure where they kept the motor whaleboat, but some photos show the boat in the water beside the ship tethered to a boat boom.

Cleveland had a 20 mm gallery on the O1 level port and starboard between the funnels. Denver had a 20 mm gallery midships on the main deck.

I think no two Cleveland class ships had the same 20 mm gun arrangement. On initial fit out some future 40 mm positions carried two or three 20 mm because not enough 40 mm guns were available. But by commissioning the ships carried their initial 40 mm battery. Cleveland and Denver had significant differences in 20 mm gun placement and this changed with time. You need good photos of the period you are modelling to figure out what configuration a ship carried. There were some very good discussions about the 20 mm guns on different ships and different periods a few years ago in this thread.

Cleveland had two narrow ventilation hoods on the back of the 6"/47 turrets, left and right, with the left side hood a bit wider than the right side vent. It looks to me as if Denver had this same arrangement. But later ships had wider hoods on both sides.

The ships appear to have had different radars in 1942.

Maybe someone else can add more.

Phil

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A collision at sea will ruin your entire day. Aristotle

In addition to Phil's superb rundown, the turrets' armored rangefinder hoods of some of the ships of the class are bolt-on hoods identical to those of the preceding Brooklyn class. Later Cleveland class ships had integrated hoods, possibly welded to the turrets (no rooftop flange, no external bolts).

Photos indicate that both Cleveland and Denver had bolt-on (Brooklyn-style) hoods.

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Steve,

Thanks. If I ever knew that I had forgotten! But I do recall seeing the bolted on flanges.

In the Vicksburg photo you can see the wide vents on the back of the turret.

Phil

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A collision at sea will ruin your entire day. Aristotle

For models from the 1/350 kits for USS Cleveland and Birmingham: I see no source for 1/350 brass 6"/47 gun barrels. Any thoughts about using 1/700 brass 12"/50 gun barrels, as a substitute? The 12" barrels have a sleeve (or whatever is the correct technical term) that the 6" barrels don't have.

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If humanity wishes to preserve a planet similar to that on which civilization developed and to which life on Earth is adapted, [atmospheric] CO2 will need to be reduced from its current 385 ppm to at most 350 ppm.
Dr James Hansen, NASA, 2008.

B&D makes them, item code BDB35039. They were meant for the ISW kits, but I'm sure you can use them on the VF kits: http://www.bdbarrels.com/

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De quoi s'agit-il?

The Brooklyn class (including Helena) used the same 6"/47 gun as the Cleveland class.

Phil

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A collision at sea will ruin your entire day. Aristotle

In the fighting in the Solomon Islands, the 6"47 was much loved because of it's high rate of fire. It was found that the 8" gun cruisers had too slow a rate of fire to be effective against rapidly maneuvering high speed targets. These were not the naval battles anyone planned for, the idea was the all or nothing armor plan that light shells would be out of range and heavy shell hits infrequent. In the Solomons, the close up "knife fights" allowed the light cruiser and even destroyer weapons to cause devastating, disabling topside damage to even Battleships. Even a modern well armored battleship like SODAK was effectively, if temporally, put out of action by numerous hits, not one of which penetrated the main armor.

Cheers: Tom

Thanks about the barrels. Since no Cleveland-class cruisers were at Guadalcanal, those messages can be deleted from this board.

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If humanity wishes to preserve a planet similar to that on which civilization developed and to which life on Earth is adapted, [atmospheric] CO2 will need to be reduced from its current 385 ppm to at most 350 ppm.
Dr James Hansen, NASA, 2008.

The Clevelands weren't in the earliest engagements at Guadalcanal, but they were there at the end of the campaign, and played a major role in the subsequent Solomon Islands campaign. Clevelands were in the battle of Rennel Island where the Chicago was sunk.

For an excellent story about Task Force 39:

"Night Work," Fletcher Pratt, Henry Holt and Company, New York, 1946.

Phil

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A collision at sea will ruin your entire day. Aristotle

A challenging time! On of my second cousin's dad was a plank holder on Fletcher and served on her through the war to the end. I still can't believe the building of the Big Blue Fleet filling the lagoon at Ulithi in just the space of a couple of years. A world's finest Navy never to be surpassed. A very patriotic youth, my dad signed up for an officers training program at 17 and three years later was a qualified OD off Okinawa. Fahey's book on his time in the Solomon's onboard either Montpelier or Denver during this time s a good read. I'd have to go downstairs to the library to dig it out.

In most navy's Light Cruisers were fairly small, maybe 5-6000 tons, but the US CL's were just was big as the CA's (nominally 10,000 tons, just more smaller guns. Savanna with 135 rather than 12 6" 47's was noted for looking like a 6" machine gun at night putting downrange maybe 150 rounds/min. Later considerations reduced the main battery to 12 6" 47's as AA started becoming a bigger factor in survival and top weight was a critical item for stability.

Great ships. When I was a teen I got as far as building a turret and barbette.

Yea for "City City Bang Bang"!

"Pacific War Diary," James Fahey, Kensington Publishing Co., 1963 (paperback).

Fahey was on the USS Montpelier CL-57, the third Cleveland class cruiser. It was one of Merril's Task Force 39 along with Cleveland CL-55, Columbia Cl-56 and Denver CL-58.

On several occasions these four ships, using fire control radar and their combined 48 6"/47 fast firing guns, reduced Japanese heavy cruisers to flaming hulks in just a few minutes.

Phil

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A collision at sea will ruin your entire day. Aristotle

Those 48 6" 47's had a combined rate of fire heater than a 50 BMG! My recollection was that Fahey had a good opinion of "Tip" Merril as a fighting Admiral. An Admiral in a sea fight is in the same rowboat as everyone else. Many hard lessons were learned to turn the tide. Admiral Willis "Ching" Lee stood out for calculated risk taking Washington and SODAK into those dark tight waters full of shoaling Long lance torpedos and long rifles.

The book "Night Work" describes how Tip Merril took over the newly formed and very inexperienced Task Force 39 and worked it into a very efficient fighting force. One of the Clevelands sailed to war without a shakedown cruise! Along the way he picked up two squadrons of destroyers and with the four Clevelands they won every fight they went into. It is a very good book!

Phil

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A collision at sea will ruin your entire day. Aristotle

The RN Test Pilot "Winkle Brown" had a saying "When needs must, the Devil drives". At least they worked together, a major problem with forces throw together at the last minute in the early dark days in the Solomons. Finally the Navy started learning how to use both their destroyers and the Radar.

Does anyone know how many 20mm guns USS Denver carried after her refit in Spring 1944?

DrPR, thanks for your previous reply. I hadn't checked this forum in a while. I was asking about the period of March- May 1944 in comparing Cleveland to Denver.

The original 1942 differences I listed were mostly - if not all - still there in 1944. But both ships had yard periods after that, and there were always some changes made.

The anti-aircraft batteries saw the greatest changes. Radars also changes periodically. To determine the differences between the two ships March to May 1944 would take an extensive amount of research. I do not know of any records of changes made to the ships during the war. Some of the changes were made at repair facilities in the Pacific and others at shipyards stateside. Often parts availability determined what changes were made.

You will need to gather all the photos you can find of the two ships and examine them carefully. Unfortunately, most pictures are from a distance (whole ship) and at low resolution, and this makes it difficult to determine just what you are looking at.

Phil

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A collision at sea will ruin your entire day. Aristotle

Changes made at Navy Yards and "most private yards" had Departure Reports that can be found at NARA (whenever they are open again ... the NARA Management and Fed employee unions are making sure they don't unless they get something out of it). Departure Reports will list armament and radar changes, structural changes, plus many things that don't show up in photos below decks.

Forward area additions will be limited. For armament, forward areas couldn't install twin and quad 40-mm mounts or larger weapons, unless they are just replacing a damaged mounts or mounts that have major issues. Single 40-mm (I don't know of any cases of singles being installed on cruisers, except for a few OMAHA class cruisers for duty in the MED in 1944) and 20-mm guns were often added and even the bulwarks surrounding them could be installed in forward areas by tenders and ship's crews.

There were biweekly "Armament Summary Changes" issued. As long as the ship REPORTED changes, you can track additions that way. The reports always lagged when the guns were added, so aren't going to tell you exactly when the weapons were added.