The Ship Model Forum

The six twin 20mm guns replaced all of seven the single 20mm guns (two twins per side at the waist and two twins in a modified tub at the fantail). Some references state that some ships didn't get the twin 20mm guns right away. But, I have not found any photos or documents that prove that to be fact. The only reference I found was for the Yarnall (DD541) in the 25 Mar 1946 BuOrd Armament Summary. However, the Armament Summaries do have errors and the 25 Apr 1947 Armament Summary was "corrected" to show 12-20mm. Out of the list of ships below, the only ones I have not verified by photo are the Hall (DD583) and Paul Hamilton (DD590). The Braine (DD630) is a case where the ship was badly damaged and was being repaired at Boston NY at the end of the war and completed repairs in March 1946. It would seem that she would have been modified at that time, but I have found no photos and she is listed as still a 10-40mm unit (with only 5-TT's?) in the Armament Summarries. However, I have found that the ArmSum's can not be trusted 100%. Here is the list of Fletcher's with the 14-40mm MOD that I'm aware of.

Hull# Name
DD-445 Fletcher
DD-446 Radford
DD-447 Jenkins
DD-448 LaVallette
DD-470 Bache
DD-473 Bennett
DD-478 Stanly
DD-499 Renshaw
DD-502 Sigsbee
DD-520 Isherwood
DD-521 Kimberly
DD-528 Mullany
DD-530 Trathen (on some published lists ... but did NOT get the MOD)
DD-531 Hazlewood
DD-534 McCord
DD-535 Miller
DD-536 Owen
DD-537 The Sullivans
DD-538 Stephen Potter
DD-539 Tingey
DD-541 Yarnell
DD-550 Capps
DD-554 Franks
DD-556 Hailey
DD-563 Ross
DD-577 Sproston
DD-578 Wickes
DD-580 Young
DD-583 Hall (lack a photo in this configuration)
DD-589 Izard
DD-590 Paul Hamilton (lack a photo in this configuration)
DD-592 Howorth
DD-630 Braine (Not officially listed and no photos found, but is suspect)
DD-643 Sigourney
DD-657 Charles J. Badger
DD-658 Colahan (Modified in 1947)
DD-661 Kidd
DD-665 Bryant
DD-668 Clarence K. Bronson
DD-669 Cotten
DD-670 Dortch
DD-671 Gatling
DD-672 Healy
DD-673 Hickox
DD-674 Hunt
DD-675 Lewis Hancock
DD-676 Marshall
DD-681 Hopewell (on some published lists ... but did NOT get the MOD)
DD-682 Porterfield
DD-685 Picking
DD-686 Halsey Powell
DD-796 Benham (Modified in 1946-47)
DD-797 Cushing (Modified in 1946-47)
DD-800 Porter
DD-802 Gregory
DD-804 Rooks (on some published lists ... but did NOT get the MOD)

Rick, great rundown!

One of the reasons some of the Fletchers did not get the mod or get repainted in Ms. 21 or Ms. 22 was that usually those mods were made during stateside refits. Some Fletchers simply did not return stateside and therefore were not able to receive the mods.

With so many Fletchers built from so many different yards supporting so many different task forces and task groups you will find during your research that words like "usually", "generally", "sometimes" and "probably" is about the only way to describe any group of them.

But the research is half the fun.

Sometimes the official records are misleading. For example, many reputable sources clearly stated that DD-804 was one of five Fletchers built with twin rudders. A former crewman told me not so, that he plainly remembered drydock work on a single rudder, and sent photos proving DD-804 had just one rudder.

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Steve,

Over the years I worked my way through the Fletcher class looking for and verifing whether the units listed by Friedman and others did get the 14-40mm mod. Friedman used textual records including the Armament Summary for November 1945. I found via photos ships not on his list that had been modified and ones that were on the list that could not have been modified (they were recommissioned for the KW still armed with 10-40mm guns). It wasn't until this last January that I saw Armament Summaries and realized that there were errors within those lists. Some ships modified were not on the list and at least one was well documented, the Bache because she was used by Truman at the 1945 Navy Day review. The Bache was modified at NYNY, maybe the only one that was. Most of the 14-40mm mods were done on the West Coast. Only one, the Sigsbee, that I have found was modified at Pearl Harbor NY. At least 21 of these Fletchers were damaged by Kamikaze, Mines, collision, etc and were modified during the repair process. The rest were largely units that were due for regular overhauls, many times whole DesDiv's were modified at the same time. A few of the first units modifed actually were returning to the war zone as the war ended. Seven of them were at Tokyo Bay for the surrender. I'm pretty sure that I have found all of the Fletcher's that received or were in the process of receiving this mod by the end of WWII. However, I have found three units that got the mod after the war in 1946-47 and it is during this period when other Fletcher's could have been modified and didn't get recorded. I have eliminated most of the remaining Fletcher's by finding photos showing them still equiped as 10-40mm 10-TT units at KW recommission or in mothballs into the 50's. Also, less than two dozen of these ships got the planned Mk63 Fire Control Director for the quad 40mm guns.

There is a whole story about the non-standard armament Fletcher's that is still unfolding during 1943. That story is for another time.

I'm not a Camo expert, but I suspect that at the end of the war, the whole plan for even/odd Ms-21/22 fell apart. They started to paint these ships into peacetime colors in late 1945.

After, the question appeared earlier about the high hull number Fletcher's getting the twin rudders, I started to look for photos that showed the rudder arrangement for these ships. I have found none with twin rudders and several with just the single rudder. When I get the chance I'll check this out at NARA.

Hi Rick,

On some ships you and I have talked about, it is actually the other way around - ships receiving the 20MM upgrade without the 40MM one. Halford is one example. Perhaps that is why Hopewell is on the upgrade list - she DID get upgraded, but only the 20MM. Could this apply to others lacking the 40MM mod, but still on your list above?

I have noticed on a few Fletcher class ship pictures of the deck, back by the aft depth charge racks there are these four cans. They are on both the port and starboard side, overhanging the deck slightly by the prop guards. I know the tubes between the depth charge racks are smoke generators but what are these cans? They look like garbage cans held by a light duty frame.

Also, I have read about the USS The Sullivans history on the web. I have a set of Floating Drydocks plans of the 1945 retrofit Sullivans, with the quad 40mm and (6) twin 20mm upgrades shown. As far as I can tell (reading the history) the Sullivans came back in the summer of 1945 to receive the retro fit but never saw action in that configuration of my plans, because the war was ending. Can someone comfirm this?

While I'm obsessing, I have another question. I noticed that some Fletchers had a square base for the wildcat/capstan with bolts. Other pictures show a round base. Does anyone have a AOTS book on the Sullivans that could tell me which base the ship had? My plans are lacking in some of the details.

Thanks everybody for any info.

Rick, thanks for all of your info so far. So the two schemes I could go with is either Ms21 or Ms22, correct? Do you happen to have a list of or know of atleast one ship in either scheme that got the full refit before the end of the war? (one ship in Ms21 and one ship in Ms22 so I could choose). Thanks!

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They aren't cans, just shaped that way. On some of the early Fletcher's, the fenders were stored there.

Dick,

The answer to your question is still TBD. When I looked in the Armament Summaries at the end of the war and for a couple of years thereafter, I found few of the 10-40mm Fletchers with 12-20mm guns. The ones I did find are listed below.

DD-480 Halford
DD-513 Terry
DD-530 Trathen
DD-564 Rowe
DD-565 Smalley
DD-567 Watts
DD-568 Wren
DD-655 John Hood
DD-798 Monssen

But, that doesn't mean that there were not more so equiped, as I have said there were errors in the lists and the listing for 20mm guns were a kind of a mess. There are yard photos for some of these ships in the early Spring of 1945, just before the 14-40mm mods got underway (Halford, Terry and Trathen come to mind). So, the plan to swap single 20mm guns for twins may have preceded the planned upgrade to quad 40mm guns. Or, since they knew that the plan was to switch to the quad 40mm and twin 20mm guns ... that they did what they could do at that time. The Halford was a prototype ship for the Mk-63, being the only Fletcher having it installed to operate with the existing twin 40mm amidship guns. I have seen more than the 10-40mm ships listed above with twin 20mm guns. But, those photos are of ships recommissioned for the KW and those ships were upgraded in a piecemeal. How many were modified during the war is a question mark. When recommissioned for the KW and in her first refit, the Brown (DD-546) retained the fantail tub designed for three single 20mm guns, but had the two forward most singles replaced by two twin 20mm guns and the aft one removed. The tub wasn't cut back and modified like was done for the other ships equipped with twin 20mm guns. The Brown at that time had a Tripod, updated Radar/fire control, only three twin 40mm guns, 12-20mm guns and HH installed before the bridge. She went to Korea armed that way.

Some sources said that the twin 20mm guns started to be installed on Fletchers in late 1944, but I have not found any installed that early. Dick, basically it still needs research.

Ari /Mike,

The first "wave" of Fletcher's completed to the Anti-Kamikaze mod in early June through July 1945. The Sullivans didn't finish until 2 Sept 1945 and didn't return to the war. The ships that were completed and either just made it back for the end of the war or were on their way are listed below. I didn't bother listing the ones completed in August and after here.

DD-521 Kimberly, Ms-21, Mk-63
DD-541 Yarnall*, Ms-21
DD-554 Franks, Ms-21
DD-563 Ross, Ms-21
DD-580 Young, Ms-21, Mk-63
DD-589 Izard, Ms-22, Mk-63
DD-592 Howorth, Ms-21, Mk-63
DD-661 Kidd, Ms-22, Mk-63
DD-668 Clarence K. Bronson*, Ms-22, DesDiv 99
DD-669 Cotten*, Ms-22, Mk-63, DesDiv 99
DD-670 Dortch*, Ms-22, Mk-63, DesDiv 99
DD-671 Gatling*, Ms-22, DesDiv 99
DD-672 Healy*, Ms-22, DesDiv 99
DD-686 Halsey Powell*, Ms-22, Mk-63

* marked were in Toyko Bay at the surrender.

There are photos for most of these on Navsource.

I got off-line in a hurry as a nasty storm passed through. I was going to add a note that of the ships listed in the "first wave" Anti-Kamikaze Fletcher refits, the Young and the Howorth were Round Bridge units and the rest were Square Bridge units.

Rick, thanks so much for this info, this helps immensly! I really appreciate it. I think I've decided on building my Trumpy kit as the USS Kimberly DD-521.

Looking over navsource's pages on the ships you mentioned, though, it looks like I might have to buy another kit, to make a small diorama based on the pictures seen here: http://www.navsource.org/archives/05/580.htm with the destroyers tied up together.

Another note, I asked this earlier with no reply, so maybe someone could answer this now, With this scheme here: Ms31/2C It calls for 5-H, 5-O, and Black. Was 5-H really used or was 5-L used? I'll be building USS Spence and the two photos of her in this scheme it looks like 5-L, but I could be wrong. Thanks

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-Abram
ModelWarships Gallery Page
Joslin Models Facebook Page

I'd go with the 5-H, 5-0 and black.

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Alright, thats what I was thinking too, thanks Martin

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-Abram
ModelWarships Gallery Page
Joslin Models Facebook Page

Abram,

If you plan on doing a dio with the Young as a subject, you will need to account for her being a Round Bridge unit and the Trumpeter kit does not have that bridge in the kit (a shame actually).

Thanks Rick, I noticed that. I think this diorama project will be added to the list of "someday"

While I'm waiting for my Tamiya Fletcher kit and my GMM PE for the Trumpeter kit I started the Trumpy Fletcher. I got the hull and major superstructure pieces together and shot the 5-N with my new airbrush, without a doubt the paint job looks A LOT better than hand brushing like I have been doing. I don't know how I've gone without an airbrush this long!

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-Abram
ModelWarships Gallery Page
Joslin Models Facebook Page

Thanks Rick for all the posts on the armament changes. Do you happen to know if the twin 20mm retrofits included the electronic sight, or did they still use some kind mechanical aiming sight ?

Mike,

I'm sorry I don't really know. I wouldn't be surprised that the answer is some did and some didn't. Some of the yard photos of these ships at Mare Island NY may show it in place (I honestly didn't look for them). The Armament Summaries didn't list that item in their lists. I don't know if this was an item left on the 20mm mount all the time or if it was attached when action looked likely. Sorry.

Alright fellow Fletcher class fans, here is a pic of the Kimberly as she has progressed so far. I'm building her mostly OOB with the exception of using GMM PE (once it arrives). The kit isn't all too bad, but there are a few strange seams and the 5" guns look...well goofy I guess is a good way to put it. Next time I'll replace them as well as the smaller AA guns. The hull was built here at my house, most everything else I've put together at work so far. Painting has been done here at home, testing my new airbrush and compressor. Ok, enough of my bablings, here is the pic:

USS Kimberly DD-521 MS21 1945

The kit is the Trumeter USS The Sullivans. Although one of the newer kits, it is kind of a step backwards in the way of detail and construction. Beggars can't be choosers though, so I'm learning from this for any time I might build it in the future. The way I see it, the more new kits the better

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-Abram
ModelWarships Gallery Page
Joslin Models Facebook Page

Mike,

I was busy scanning photos from my "hardcopy" collection into my digital collection yesterday and I found a picture of what you were asking about the electronic sight on the twin 20mm guns. I have this photo of the Howorth (DD592) completing her upgrade to the 14-40mm configuration at Mare Island NY and right there were the sights on the twin 20mm guns. I cropped a scan of just that area for this post. It is kind of unusual to see this area (or any deck space) this "uncluttered" while being worked on in the yard. Great detail for this area. No idea if all these ships got these or at what point they were installed.

Rick:

Great (clear) picture of the electronic 20mm sight usage, thanks for the follow up. It's always nice to see a picture to confirm a piece of equipment! Keep up the impressive work.

Is the bicycle next to the twin mount a part of the retrofit?