The Ship Model Forum

Hello,

1.Two German destroyers Z2 Georg Thiele and Z3 Max Schultz wore in 1938
untypical for Kriegsmarine marking - two red bands on after funnel and red
Andreaskreuz (Andrew's cross) on bridge wings.

2. In October 1938 Z5 Paul Jacobi, Z6 Theodor Riedel and Z7 Hermann Schoemann
participated with Admiral Graf Spee in so called Neutrallity Patrol (Spain and North Africa waters).
During this trip they had painted black-white-red bands on No. 2 and No. 4 127 mm
mountings.

My question and request are: has anybody get any pics of above mentioned ships
with these markings and could eventually share with them or advice where to find them ( for example I found such a pic in French book devoted to French Destroyers
-a pic of Theador Riedel as seen from Torpilleur D'Escadre Forbin).

Any help or suggestions will be highly appreciated
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MODERATOR EDIT: Adding list of available kits and gallery entries

Available Zerstörer Kits
1/350
Type 34A
IronShipwright Type 34A Destroyer

Type 36
Zvezda Z-17 Dieter von Roeder (also released by Revell of Germany)

Type 36A
Trumpeter Z-25
Dragon Z-26
Trumpeter Z-30
Iron Shipwights Type 36A destroyer

Type 36A (Mob)
Dragon Z-31
Dragon Z-32
Dragon Z-38
Dragon Z-39

Type 36B (Mob)
Trumpeter Z-43

1/700
Type 34A
Trumpeter Z-7

Type 36
Trumpeter Z-21

Type 36A
Trumpeter Z-25
Trumpeter Z-28

Type 36A (Mob)
Dragon Z-31
Dragon Z-32
Trumpeter Z-37
Dragon Z-39
Tamiya Z-37/Z-39

Type 36B (Mob)
Trumpeter Z-43

GALLERY ENTRIES
1/350
Gil Costa’s Trumpeter Z-25 http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery ... /index.htm
Won-Hui Lee’s Z-30 diorama http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery ... /index.htm
Krzysztof Wróbel’s Trumpeter Z-43 http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery ... /index.htm
Booyoung Yoon’s Trumpeter Z-30 http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery ... /index.htm
Yvan Van Impe’s Z-43 http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery ... /index.htm
Peter Hoskin’s Dragon Z-39 http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery ... /index.htm
Chris Flodberg’s Trumpeter Z-30 http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery ... /index.htm
Jenny Ryan’s Dragon Z-39 http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery ... /index.htm
Eleven Wong’s Trumpeter Z-30 http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery ... /index.htm
Werner De keersmaecker’s Trumpeter Z-25 http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery ... /index.htm
Stan Traas’ Trumpeter Z-25 http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery ... /index.htm
Santiago Ezcurra’s Trumpeter Z-30 http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery ... /index.htm
Mathias Carl’s Trumpeter Z-25 http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery ... index.html
Peter Van Buren’s Dragon Z-39 http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery ... index.html
Mark Staszewski’s Dragon Z-39 http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery ... index.html
Richard Herrington’s Trumpeter Z-25 http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery ... index.html
Phil Reeder’s Dragon Z-39 http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery ... index.html

1/400
Klaus Klobe’s Heller Z-33 http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery ... /index.htm
Jan Varga’s Heller Z-31 http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery ... /index.htm
Mathias Carl’s Heller Z31 http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery ... index.html
Guillermo Martinez’s Heller Z-31 http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery ... index.html
Andreas Ruckdeschel’s Heller Z-32 http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery ... index.html

1/600
Jens Hansen’s Aifirx Z-28 http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery ... index.html

1/700
Won-Hui Lee’s Trumpeter Z-28 http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery ... /index.htm
Matthias Pohl’s Trumpeter Z-24 http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery ... /index.htm
Matthias Pohl’s Trumpeter Z-29 http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery ... /index.htm
Matthias Pohl’s Trumpeter Z-28 diorama http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery ... /index.htm
Gunnar Dörwald’s Trumpeter Z-7 http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery ... /index.htm
Kostas Trumpeter Z-21 and DKM cruiser diorama http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery ... /index.htm
Won-Hui Lee’s Z-30 North Sea diorama http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery ... /index.htm
Robert Pleskowski’s Trumpeter Z-38 http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery ... /index.htm
Paul Helfrich’s Dragon Z-25 http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery ... /index.htm
Joe Lavender’s Dragon Z-39 http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery ... /index.htm
Robert Pleskowski’s Trumpeter Z-25 http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery ... /index.htm
Katarzyna Manikowska viltianus’s Dragon Z-37 http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery ... /index.htm
Krzysztof Andrzejak’s Tamiya Z-37 http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery ... /index.htm
Daniele Chiarello’s Revell Germany Z-38 http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery ... index.html
Erick Navas’ Tamiya Z-37 http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery ... index.html
Soonho Choi’s Tamiya Z-37/39 http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery ... index.html
Matthias Pohl's Trumpeter Paul Jacoby 1934a class http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery ... /index.htm

Since there as been some interest in these ships recently I thought it would be useful to bring this topic forward so that the modelers interested on the German destroyers can exchange some information here.
Regards,

Filipe

_________________
"Build few and build fast,
Each one better than the last"
John Fisher

Arrived back from Dortmund on Sunday where there was an all BRASS model of Z39 at 1/35th scale. She was gi-normous! and she floated, so I assume motorised. My German isn't good enough to have asked, though I have no problem when it comes to beer for some reason.

Boatwise it was disappointing in that no stands sold solely boat kits. Mainly plastic kits, ready made cars etc. Model aircraft galore, big, bloody big and gigantic. R/C hot air baloons would you believe? Trains wrre in two halls, but sadly boats were way down the line and what there was was extremely sparse, so I bought an complete R/C tank in desperation.

I enjoyed it though. This is a little way off topic. My apologies.

HAB

Yes, Dormund becomes more and more less attractive to serious shipmodellers.

I think you saw this Destroyer model:



Impressive, although way too big for me. I wonder when and if ever this Model will be finished.

Peter.

Hello, HAB!

Nice to hear you made it back safely. I have tremendously enjoyed meeting you and Dave and Phil and Bill and the other guys.
I have a couple of pictures of the Intermodell on my PC, they still need modification for internet publication, I hope I can get to it soon.

IMHO Dortmund has much inproved for both wet and dry modellers.

The destroyer is humungous, really! I can't wait to see the progress made at next years show! ... and J. Kaiser's Bismark ... and ...and

Cheers,
Guido

Hi Guido,
Unfortunately this is the only way I can contact you. It was good to see you again and many thanks for the evening in Dortmund City, I enjoyed myself and the meal was fantastic! But what a name for a restaurant!

The exhibition had a few goodies such as Herr Kaiser's 'Bismarck' and that enormous brass destroyer. A big big for me also, but impressive. I hope he paints it as bare brass is a bit off putting to me.

DW has taken his pal Bill to Duxford today. He must be mad as he plans to go there and back in one day!

See you in Telford....hopefully.

HAB (Sorry gentlemen, this is way off)

The detail on your ship is worth seeing. I love the small details you have added all over the ship.

I have found that by closing the main window the first times it comes up, the popup does not reload the second time I click the link.

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Timothy Dike
Owner & Administrator
ModelWarships.com

So Peter, we are both new here! It seems the Z-38 scale 1/100 is the new "bench mark" now. May I ask who the builder was? Grüße, Tony

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http://kaisersbunker.com/pommern/

"Wiener dogs: bringing joy and happiness to the peoples of the world"

Welcome Tony, nice to have you around here

The builder of Z-38 is Markus van Beek, well known and famous for his wonderful 1/100 BISMARCK

Hi guys, I'm looking for some info regarding Heller's "Z31 Zerstorer" model. I'm toying with the idea of making a diorama of "Operation Rhine" in 1/400 scale using Heller's Bismarck, Prinze Eugon and the various escort craft. I want to depict the start of the mission as the battlegroup were sailing thru the Kattegat. As I understand, the escort consisted of a number of minesweepers, or Sperrbrecher, which Heller make a 1/400 model of. Also included were 3 "Maass" class Destroyer's, "Hans Lody", "Friedrich Eckoldt" and "Z 23". From what I've been able to find out, Heller's "Z 31" kit can be used (with various mods to weapons fit, radar etc) to build Z 31 thru to Z 39. Can the "Z 31" kit be used to represent the 3 escorting Destroyer's that I have mentioned. I've been doing some research on the web, but cant find a definative answer. I know the Z series of Destroyer's had various differences such as early Z's had a single rudder, the later Z's had twin rudder's, there was changes to the funnel heights, main gun calibre, modifications to the bow etc. I'm not worried about below waterline differences as they wont be seen, my main concern is the general appearence such as superstructure, deck layout, overall dimensions etc. One thing I cant seem to find an answer to is this, one article state's that the Z 31 onwards ships were "slightly Larger". It does not say if this refers to a larger displacement or larger hull dimensions. I've got picture's of practically all the Z's from pre war to end of war and to me they all appear to be about the same size as far as hull dimensions go, and appearence wise they all seem to follow the same basic deck and superstruture layout. From the point of view of the diorama, it will be my first attempt at doing one and bearing in mind Heller's general accuracy issue's, I'm not worried about absolute accuracy, the diorama will be strictly a "basic representation" rather than "a historically and technically correct" project. So essentially what I'm asking is, can I use Z 31 to "roughly represent" the other 3 Destroyers, much the same way as an early Admiral Scheer could represent Graff Spee but not Deutchland as it's general appearance etc, was more like Graff Spee than Deutchland, whereas a later version of Admiral Scheer could be used to represent Deutchland but not Graff Spee as Scheers appearence now looks more like Deutchland than Graff Spee. Sorry to be so long winded about this, any help would be greatly appreciated, thanks guys, Aidan.

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What Admiral Nelson really said when he put the telescope to his blind eye,,,,
"I see no ships,, whats that Hardy? oh er, right, ah, thats better, F@@k Me, look at all those ships"

The Maas class consisted of 16 ships, Z-1 through Z-16. Z-1 to Z-4 were type 1934 ships. The other 12 were 1934A's. These ships were smaller than later ships, had narrower sterns, and taller funnels and funnel caps. If divided by builders, the specific group could be identified by a number of markers, so identifying the correct group is necessary for identifying the features. (Z-1 thru 4 by Deutschewerke, Z-5 thru 8 by Deschimag, Z-9 thru 13 by Germania, and Z-14 thru 16 by Blohm and Voss.)

The Von Roeder class, Z-17 through Z-22, were larger, had lower funnels and caps, and broader sterns. Z-20 thru 22 had clipper bows. These ships were type 1936.

These first 22 also shared a few features. All had 5 5" guns, flat transom sterns, and standard haws holes for the anchors.

Z-23 through Z-30 were type 1936A's. They were slightly larger than the type 1936's and were designed for 5 5.9" guns, with the forward pair in a twin turret. Lack of availability of the turret caused all to be delivered with a single mount in its place. Some survivors received the twin mount in later refits. They had the low funnel caps of the type 1936 ships, but had modified transoms (with the sides beveled out at the waterline) and the deck-hawses for the anchors. Z-31 through Z-34 and Z-37 through Z-39 were designated as type 1936A (mob) and differed visually from the type 1936A's in having a taller, curved forward funnel cap. Only Z-31 was delivered without the twin mount forward. All of the ships with the single 5.9's had curved tracks to move the shells around the guns to shorten the distance they had to be manhandled. This required that the platforms for the raised guns were larger to accomodate the tracks, and this was an identifying feature for the 5.9" guns.

Z-35, 36 and 43 were type 1936B's, which retained the larger hull of the type 1936A's but reverted to the 5" single mounts. They also had an enhanced AA.

Of the ships you listed, Hans Lody was Z-10, Eckoldt was Z-16, and Z-23 was the first of the 1936A's. All were different classes, but Z-23 was closest to Z-31.

Hi Dick, thanks for your excellent answer, with regards to later Z's being slightly larger, the main thing I'm trying to find out is "how much larger" and if this "larger" refered to dimensions or displacement. If, in 1/400 scale, the dimensional difference in size is only a couple of mm, then thats good enough for what I want to do, whereas if it's a couple of inches, then obviously Z 31 wont do for the Z 10 and Z 16. If I explain excactly what I'm up to, it might help. This will be my first attempt at a large diorama, I dont want to get bogged down spending months on correcting all the flaws in each individual model otherwise I'll never get it done, I basically want to put a battleship, a heavy cruiser, 3 Destroyers and some assorted smaller craft into a diorama for the sole purpose of learning how to do the waterbase, waves patterns etc, I'm not worried about the accuracy of the models at all, their just to fill out the diorama, they will be more or less built straight out of the box with minimal P/E and as few mods as I can get away with as I want to finish it by september at the latest as I intend to enter it into our local village Annual Show where 99.9% of anyone who would be looking at it couldn't tell the difference between the Titanic and the Iceberg, let alone the difference between Z 23 and Z 31, so in a nut shell, could Z 31 look roughly "something like" the other Z's, thanks, Aidan.

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What Admiral Nelson really said when he put the telescope to his blind eye,,,,
"I see no ships,, whats that Hardy? oh er, right, ah, thats better, F@@k Me, look at all those ships"

It depends on what you can live with, since it is your diorama. Z-10 and Z-16 were almost 8M shorter than Z-31. (About 3/4 inch in 1/400.) They had vertical bows, while Z-31 and Z-23 had clipper bows. The guns were noticeably smaller on the earlier ships, and Z-23 and 31 were built with one single gun forward, which was later replaced by a twin mount. (After the Bismarck affair.) Z-10 and 16 had two single 5" mounts forward, #2 superfiring over #1. On Z-23 and 31, the two high mounts aft had very wide platform extensions on either side to accomodate the track I mentioned. The platform extensions on Z-10 and 16 were circular and extended about 1/4 as far from the bulkheads as the angular extensions on the other two. The funnel caps were 2-3 times as high on Z-10 and 16 as on the other two. The sterns on Z-10 and 16 were about 2/3 the width at the transom as Z-23 and 31. This lead to the earlier ships having vastly larger prop guards than the later ships. The list goes on. Difficult conversions. The differences were more than just cosmetic.

Thats perfect Dick, excactly what I wanted to know, thank you very much for going to the trouble of providing the info for me. So essentially I can use 31 for 23, but not for 10 and 16. So, next step, finding suitable ships for 10 and 16, which I somehow doubt I will, thanks Dick, really appreciated.

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What Admiral Nelson really said when he put the telescope to his blind eye,,,,
"I see no ships,, whats that Hardy? oh er, right, ah, thats better, F@@k Me, look at all those ships"

I could give you another option; there was another "operation" that might fit your stash a bit better.

05 July 1942: At 1100, Tirpitz, Scheer, Hipper, the destroyers Friedrich Ihn, Richard Beitzen, Z-24, Z-27, Z-28, Z-29, Z-30, and the torpedo boats T-7 and T-15 leave Altafjord. The Soviet submarine K-21 attacks Tirpitz with torpedoes at 1702, but obtains no hits. At 2130 the Germans cancel their mission and return home. Finally the German battle group does not engage any enemy ships, but the Luftwaffe and the U-boats manage to sink 22 merchantmen carrying 430 tanks, 210 planes, 3,350 vehicles and over 99,000 tons of material. (from here: http://www.kbismarck.com/tirpitz.html)

Z-31, with a shortened #1 funnel cap could be any of the following: Z-24, 27, 29 or 30. Your diorama could be just one part of the German force. If you wanted to get fancy, you might even try depicting the torpedo wakes.

Hi Dick, thats an interesting idea, the only trouble is I dont have 430 tanks to spare . I've got Tirpitz, Admiral Scheer and Admiral Hipper in 1/400, thow in a couple of Z's and 2 T-Boats, could look interesting. As for the torpedo wakes, with my lack of diorama skills, I'd be lucky if I could depict a flat calm seabase, let alone waves, wakes, splashes etc . Definately something to add to my "Things To Think About" list, cheers.

_________________
What Admiral Nelson really said when he put the telescope to his blind eye,,,,
"I see no ships,, whats that Hardy? oh er, right, ah, thats better, F@@k Me, look at all those ships"

I hope questions on the Kriegsmarine's "Flottentorpedoboote" (which were basically destroyers in all but name) are permitted here; they don't appear to have a CASF thread of their own.

My 1939-class Torpedoboot T-22 (Heller 1/400 kit) has finally got to the paint stage, and after airbrushing the base coat, I'm ready to start painting the camouflage pattern on the hull. Both Airfix/Heller's instructions, and a colour drawing in an old Russian profile on this class, show the pattern as light grey, dark grey/black and olive-green.
This profile, however, shows the "green" as blue-grey (which also matches the description in Steel Navy's review of the 1/700 WSW kit).

I assume blue-grey, not green, is the correct colour to use - am I correct?

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Model Ship Kit Reviews

Most likely. I have checked the WEM colourcoat range for Kriegsmarine and there is no green but 5 different "Blaugrau" tints

Cheers
Gilbert

Thanks! Revell's acrylic "Blaugrau" looks like a reasonable match for this colour.

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Model Ship Kit Reviews

I want to scratch build a model of a later zerstorer. I was thinking Z-39, but it depends on what drawings I can get. Are there any good drawings of Z-39 available? If not, what other (MOB) boats have some good, high quality drawings available?

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The difference between what we do and what we are capable of doing would suffice to solve all the worlds problems. Mohandas Ghandi