The Ship Model Forum

Thanks guys. I will toy with this idea. Dan, where the admirals ensign be hung and how big would it be?

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Gabriel

Well, at sea, the usual practice was to fly the Japanese naval ensign from the jackstaff off the mainmast and the admiral's flag also off the mainmast, just further up at the top. I don't know the exact size of the admiral's flag relative to the Japanese flag.

A good example below is that of Abukuma, flagship of Rear Admiral Sentaro Omori and DesRon 1 enroute to Pearl Harbor.

I've included an illustration of Tama's mainmast for some details that will be similar to the Group 2 Nagaras.

What makes your question a little more interesting is that you are depicting Nagara assuming the mantle of Vice Admiral Nagumo after he abandons Akagi. What I don't know is if DesRon 10 commander Rear Admiral Susumu Kimura's flag (he will still be aboard) will be taken down, or flown from another location at a lower level. I'm not sure of the protocol. Photo of Nagumo's flag aboard Akagi also below.

Thanks for that info Dan. What would you with you best educated guess? Likewise how big would you make the flags?

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Gabriel

I really don't know how the protocol would work. Might be too confusing to have two flags, though I suppose one under the other might work.

Sadly, I don't know about sizing, either. Flags were all different sizes, though an admiral's flag and the national ensign look similar in size in some photos. FWIW.

In Tameichi Hara's Japanese Destroyer Captain he talks about seeing the Ensign of the Vice Admiral of the DesRon 10 being taken down and replaced by Nagumo's.

But.... I think about that.

The Nagara still had R. Admiral Kimura in command of DesRon10, which the ships of that Squadron would still need to know who was in charge, while the overall Flag of the fleet (Nagumo's). So, they would need a way to differentiate whose orders were from whom, and to whom.

So, I wonder if Kimura's ensign was really replaced, and maybe was just not moved down the jackstaff to a lower position.

I will have to go back and see if I can find the reference.

This is a good point, since similar things happened in the Solomons.

MB

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Working on:


1/700 (All Fall 1942):
HIJMS Nagara
HIJMS Aoba & Kinugasa
USS San Francisco
USS Helena
USS St. Louis
USS Laffey & Farenholt
HIJMS Sub-Chasers No. 4 - 7
HIJMS Sub-Chasers No. 13 - 16

I was looking at the picture of the Abukuma and noticed she does not have a jack staff on the fantail. The Nagara kit does. Now I am wondering if I should remove it and the one on the bow.

But given the information Dan and Matthew have provided I will likely do something like the flag for Kimura and putting up Nagumo's. I likewise think it is not likely that they would fly both flags. But in the off chance they would have Nagumo's would be on top so it in the process of being raised does not mean the second would not be raised after. A little misdirection never hurt. Hey look I am becoming a politician or David Copperfield.

I will also add this piece. This is based off my knowledge of Japanese culture with 30 years in the traditional martial community. Not factual data here. The senior always gets the high spot and recognized as such. This would also have been set up for the senior person upon arrival. Unless the senior asks to not have it happen. As Nagumo was not on board this would not have been able to occur. As to the issue of the second flag being flown, I can see this scenario playing out very easily; It would not be proper to have two flags up. Take down the Junior. Then they would simply expect that communication of Nagumo transferring his flag but no mention of Kimura moving would indicate that Kimura is not moving and it is simply understood. Yet no one would ask for fear of reprisal because they are expected to simply know these things already. I have seen this type of thing play out with Sensei so many times it is not even funny.

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Gabriel

The one flag scenario sounds quite reasonable to me.

Regarding jackstaffs, both forward and aft: at sea, they could, and usually would, be lowered to the deck.

Just folded down?

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Gabriel

The foreleg is attached to a hinge mounted on the deck. The trailing legs are hinged on the foreleg and are probably fitted into small holes or raised circles on the deck. They pop out and everything can fold down. While I don't have a close up shot of a CL in this configuration, I do have this pic of Akebono's rig.

It varies by ship and circumstance. I've got pics showing them both up and down at sea.

In these photos, it may have been stowed away.

Yeah, I too know a bit about Japanese Culture (having had a few girlfriends and hanging out in the Japanese Community in San Francisco). Being Senpai or Kouhai in various relationships was important to remember, so as not to insult anyone.

And thought about that in my post, but struggled with what would win out.

And, thinking back to Hara Tameichi's Japanese Destroyer Captain he bemoaned how often status got in the way of Military efficiency or necessity.

MB

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OMG LOOK! A signature

Working on:


1/700 (All Fall 1942):
HIJMS Nagara
HIJMS Aoba & Kinugasa
USS San Francisco
USS Helena
USS St. Louis
USS Laffey & Farenholt
HIJMS Sub-Chasers No. 4 - 7
HIJMS Sub-Chasers No. 13 - 16

Latest updates.








I am now debating on waiting for Flyhawk to get the corrected parts to me or say "To H*** with it." completing the last two boats and float plane anyway. Those are largely what is holding me up from finishing her now. Opinions welcome.

Thank you for looking.

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Gabriel

Excellent work, Gabriel!

As for whether or not to continue on, I say that if you've waited this long to get things right, why not wait a little longer if it means getting your build finished right instead of fast (relatively speaking, heh).

Just my tuppence...

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Sean Nash, ACG (aircraft camo gestapo)

On the ways:
1/200 Trumpeter HMS Nelson
1/700 Tamiya USS Yorktown CV-5

In the stash:
1/35 Italiari PT-109
1/35 Tamiya "Pibber" Patrol Boat
1/350 Trumpeter USS Yorktown CV-10

I agree - great work so far and patience is called for.

It does not look like much but this was two hours worth of work. The vast majority of it was getting the struts to agree with me. I would not say this was over engineered and had too many excessive parts but it was still sitting on a part count of 20.



It will be painted black and have the decals done with maybe a few minor tweeks after that for effect.

While doing the research on this plane briefly, I found out a few interesting things about the Aichi E11A1 (Laura). There were only 17 made. Most of the time we had no idea where any of them were. It was confirmed that Nagara had one at Midway. They were designed as a night scout and spotting plane to assist ships in night attacks.

Anyway, painting will be done soon. Then I will start working on the remaining boats and finish the water next. I decided not to wait on Flyhawk as I am so close to the end of this build and just want to finish.

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Gabriel

Brilliant!

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I wonder if she still had the Laura at Guadalcanal or in the Solomons?

I have finally started making progress with my own Nagara (in 1/700, using a kit bash of Fujimi and Tamiya/Aoshima parts, plus some scratch-built things (like the bridge).

I will never be able to get my bridge done as well as yours (partially just due to scale differences). But the after-decks/platforms are killing me (I noticed on photos that the railings on those platforms actually continue around the uprights on the mast without interruption - the platforms have the aft mast legs inset into the decks of the platforms so that the railings can wrap around them without a break). Getting a symmetrical platform on a scratch build in 1/700 of where the inset tripod legs are is a gigantic pain.

But.... At least I have your work to help guide and inspire the build.

MB

_________________
OMG LOOK! A signature

Working on:


1/700 (All Fall 1942):
HIJMS Nagara
HIJMS Aoba & Kinugasa
USS San Francisco
USS Helena
USS St. Louis
USS Laffey & Farenholt
HIJMS Sub-Chasers No. 4 - 7
HIJMS Sub-Chasers No. 13 - 16

The tiny-weeny float plane looks good....I know what a hassle those can be!

Tim W.

Finished the port side 8 meter launch as well as the boat stands and the davits on the starboard side. I am going to be doing the boat that will be in the water shortly, painting the E11A1, putting the flags on and finishing the water in the next couple of days. Then it is railings, figures and rigging.

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Gabriel

Beautiful.

MB

_________________
OMG LOOK! A signature

Working on:


1/700 (All Fall 1942):
HIJMS Nagara
HIJMS Aoba & Kinugasa
USS San Francisco
USS Helena
USS St. Louis
USS Laffey & Farenholt
HIJMS Sub-Chasers No. 4 - 7
HIJMS Sub-Chasers No. 13 - 16