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PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 4:59 pm 
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Some more ideas I've had tumbling around in my head for my alt history; convoy escorts! In my little world there becomes the need for heavy convoy escorts. The pre-war DDs and little DEs can't handle all of the workload and the brand new DDs are all going to the Pacific to screen the million and one CVs. So, two new types/classes are built; large DDs (I'm dubbing DDLs or DD Leaders for now) and enlarged DEs (I'm dubbing Super DDEs). Both are high speed, long range escorts capable of prosecuting U-boats and providing effective AA cover for the convoys. Some specs and sketches follow.

DDLs: (Can't decide on dimensions so two sets)

Length (LOA) 450' or 475'
Beam: 50' or 51'
Draught: 23-25' or 25'

About 4,000 tons light
About 4,700 tons full load
About 80,000 SHP
35+ Knots
Endurance: about 7,000nm at 12kts

Armament:
4 Twin 5"/38s
2 Quad and 2 Twin 40mms or 4 Quads
10 Twin 20mms
2 Triple 21" Torpedo Tubes
2 Hedgehogs
2 Depth Charge Racks
8 K Guns


Super DDEs:

Length (LOA) 350'
Beam: 36'
Draught: 21'

About 2,000 tons light
About 2,200 tons full load
About 50-60,000 SHP
35+ Knots
Endurance: about 6,200nm at 12kts

Armament:
3 Single 5"/38s
4 Twin 40mms
10 Twin 20mms
1 Quad or Quin set of 21" Torpedo Tubes
2 Hedgehogs
2 Depth Charge Racks
6 K Guns

Armor for both resemble Fletcher/Sumner Class layouts. Figures for which I'm still coming up empty on, anyone have them?

Design Sketches:

Image

Image

I'm leaning towards DDL Scheme 2 and DDE Schemes 1,3, and 5. Basically beefed up Fleet Destroyers and DDEs with more effective armor and firepower and able to keep up with the Carriers. I plan on scratch building theses from balsa/sheet styrene at some point this year.

Any thoughts, insights, suggestions, etc...? Can anyone knowledgeable verify/correct my dimension figures?

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 7:43 pm 
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Some rather interesting thoughts in there... a few thoughts come to mind, like the expanse of 20mm mountings - realistically, they're somewhat extraneous in the later war period - they were quite often found inadequate, so just a couple fore up-close work would be handy. K Guns are similarly questionable for benefit, with hedgehogs being possibly more useful, or the full blown DC racks. That said, everything else looks pretty interesting.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 8:32 pm 
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An idea worth watching...

I must say, I have some ideas for what you're thinking. I myself, get tired of 3D modelling, and occasionally go 2D. I draw out ideas for what if ships, armor, aircraft, and weapons. Mostly ships though. I'll look through the files, and post what I think would be a good design fitting to this thread.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 02, 2010 1:05 pm 
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Actually, after some thought, I came up with an idea that kinda combines with my Essex/Nimitz Switcharoo thread. Instead of just another destroyer, why not make a transport?? If you've ever seen a WWII LSD (Landing Ship Dock), you'd know that they were almost like floating drydocks. But instead of just repairing one ship, why not carry 6 or 7 PT Boats? Or maybe 3 or 4 110' Subchasers? These could be more effective, as they have ASW capability, even if at a lower capacity. But if there are more of them, that increases the amount of surface coverage. The ship could be the size of a destroyer, which as we know, needs a 300+ crew. The LSDs, which were Amphibious ships capable of carrying 41 LVTs with crew and soldiers only needed 200+ crew. These also had 8,000 miles range @15 knots. If one or two of these were used as motherships for possibly 9 PT Boats or 5 Sub chasers each, they could cover more ground than a single DD.

I might add that they also had a 5/38 cal. gun, 2 quad and 2 twin Bofors, and 10 20mm Oerlikons - pretty formidable for an Amphibious ship.

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PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2010 10:39 pm 
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Cliffy B wrote:
Some more ideas I've had tumbling around in my head for my alt history...

What is the premise for your alternate history? I've always been fascinated by alternate military histories.

Your DDL drawings remind me of a slightly scaled down Atlanta (CL-51 class) anti-aircraft cruiser. Well done!

Regards,
Bob


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PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2010 10:49 pm 
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Cliffy,

Why bother with torpedo tubes if your adversary is submarine? You planning on catching one on the surface within torpedo range?

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PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2010 4:03 pm 
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Russ2146 wrote:
Cliffy,

Why bother with torpedo tubes if your adversary is submarine? You planning on catching one on the surface within torpedo range?


Well, keepin mind Russ, that there were occasional surface skirmishes with capital ships, the chance of running into an enemy Transport,and let's not forget that subs take a few minutes to dive under torpedo depth.

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PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2010 4:32 pm 
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Gopher,

The trouble is......We didn't have homing torpedoes to chase to sub down. In addition, sonar wasn't good enough to indicate depth. Third, you had to set the depth at which a torpedo would run....... before you launched it. Fourth, torpedos were known to run shallow or deep, no matter what depth you set it at.

5" 38's work on capital and merchant ships too. That's why they were "multi-purpose" - AA and surface, and 5" projectiles are cheaper than torpedos. That's why the German subs surfaced and used their deck guns if there were no escorts around.

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PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2010 5:00 pm 
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Seriously, how do you know/remember all of this Russ!? So I guess the torpedoes could get lost...Now, what to replace them with...

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PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2010 7:21 pm 
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In defense of the torpedo tubes, even the Sumners and Gearings were commissioned with two sets of quin tubes and the last of the DEs got a set of triples. Yes the DDs lost a set in lieu of an increased AA battery but they didn't lose them ALL! Even postwar they were retained until finally replaced with Mk-25, 32, or ASROC.

Besides, who says that in my little world they didn't develop a surface launched version of the Mk-24 torpedo (an advanced FIDO) at some point? :big_grin:

I might wind up dumping them on the DDLs since they're similar in size to the Atlantas and they lost their tubes rather quickly. But I think I'll retain a triple or quad set on the DEs.

It might also help to explain when and where these ships will be used and what they'll be facing. Brief description of the war in my alt history. The need for larger and more effective convoy escorts arises after a string of major defeats in North Africa and the Middle East. The Kriegsmarine has also inflicted heavy loses on the British Home Fleet and US Atlantic Fleet which they owe to a massive pre-war naval build up (aided by Japan). All of this culminates in the fall of the British Isles in 1945 and the subsequent fall of Iceland barely six months later. The Allies are left with North America and Greenland as their eastern most outpost for the next two years until the Offensive of 1947 and the eventual liberation of the UK in 1949-50.

It's between 1942 and 1945 that these new DDLs and DEs show up to aide the battered convoys and ensure the survival of Greenland. U-Boats are still a threat but so are the German surface raiders and CVLs. The Super DDEs are built in place of the later classes of DEs that existed in real life and are used almost exclusively in the Atlantic. The DDLs are built in far smaller numbers, by 1946 there are only around 15 or so operating in the Atlantic with more on the way. Design wise the DDLs are basically a more effective version of the CLAAs with better armor thus allowing them to act more along the lines of a DD then simply a floating mass of AA guns with a thin skin.

The backstory still needs work as it obviously still has it's holes. Feel free to offer up any advice on how to plug them. Again if any of you have any ideas on how to better the designs feel free to share. As you can see from the dates on the drawings I drew these up over four months ago and haven't really worked on them much since.

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1/700 Whiff ASW Showdown - FFs vs SSGN 1984

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PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2010 8:14 pm 
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Whoa...that makes my story seem pretty hoe should I say it...peaceful. No offense intended,but Cliffy, it seems as though you've got a long war in your head there!

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PostPosted: Thu May 20, 2010 1:33 pm 
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Question gents, could a Fletcher power plant fit into a Butler Class DE hull? The main problem with the DEs was their lack of speed thus, they couldn't run with the main fleet. The size differences between the two classes in real life are only 69 feet in length and 3-4 feet in beam with the Fletcher being the larger. In my sketches I noted that the Super DDEs would be lengthened Butlers. Would inserting a hull plug provide sufficient space for the more powerful Fletcher plant? I'll worry about uptake trunking and funnels later, just need to know if the engine swap is feasible or not. Given the fact that even with the new power plant these ships will be lighter than the full size fleet DDs, speeds of over 40 knots should be easily attainable. Some Fletchers were clocked breaking the 40 knot mark and a specially modified, Gearing or Sumner (fitted with extra high pressure boilers) broke 50!

The higher speed factors in greatly once the war with Japan begins to wind down in 1946 and the Essexes begin transferring to the Atlantic. It also allows them to hunt down and prosecute U-boats at greater range and then catch up to the convoys much more quickly.

Just an idea, any thoughts?

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PostPosted: Thu May 20, 2010 1:58 pm 
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Cliffy B wrote:
Brief description of the war in my alt history. The need for larger and more effective convoy escorts arises after a string of major defeats in North Africa and the Middle East. The Kriegsmarine has also inflicted heavy loses on the British Home Fleet and US Atlantic Fleet which they owe to a massive pre-war naval build up (aided by Japan). All of this culminates in the fall of the British Isles in 1945 and the subsequent fall of Iceland barely six months later. The Allies are left with North America and Greenland as their eastern most outpost for the next two years until the Offensive of 1947 and the eventual liberation of the UK in 1949-50.

The backstory still needs work as it obviously still has it's holes. Feel free to offer up any advice on how to plug them.

Cliffy,

I love alt histories. What specifically are the "holes" that you think need filling?

Your alt history requires that the war have been greatly extended. For what it's worth, here's my related thoughts. There were two events on the Atlantic side that could have hugely impacted the duration of the war and one on the Pacific side (these are highly debatable, of course, and many key turning points occured). On the Atlantic side, had Hitler not invaded Russia and/or had the Battle of Britain gone rapidly bad, the war would have been greatly extended. On the Pacific side, had the Japanese won at Guadalcanal (and they very nearly did), the U.S. would likely have been delayed a year before attempting another landing somewhere. A very close second in terms of impact on the duration of the Pacific war would have been if the carriers were caught and sunk at Pearl Harbor. The U.S. would have had to wait for new Essex class carriers to show up before attempting an offensive operation.

Please share some more of your history with us!

Regards,
Bob


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PostPosted: Thu May 20, 2010 3:01 pm 
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1/700 Whiff USN Modernized CAs 1984
1/700 Whiff ASW Showdown - FFs vs SSGN 1984

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1/700 Whiff USN ASW Hunter Killer Group Dio 1984


Last edited by Cliffy B on Mon Jun 18, 2012 1:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu May 20, 2010 3:37 pm 
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AWESOME!!!!!! My alternate history so far has been around my Truk diorama. Now, I think I should start expanding to Europe...Anyone wan to hear it, or have any ideas?

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PostPosted: Thu May 20, 2010 5:07 pm 
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Cliffy B wrote:
Here's a brief overview of my alt history in Europe.

OK, that's just awesome reading!

For what it's worth, the type of alt histories that I like the best are those that depend on the least amount of change to trigger the alternate course of events. The "smallness" of the change is what makes it chillingly real. For example, an alt scenario where a giant asteroid smashes into the U.S. in 1941 and thereby decimates our production capacity, just doesn't do much for me because it's so implausible. But, something like the Japanese continuing their initial night naval sortie at Guadalcanal and destroying the unguarded transports instead of inexplicably turning back is the kind of razor's edge decision point that could have easily gone the other way, leading to an alt course of events. With that in mind, the assasination of Hitler by Rommel is highly entertaining but less likely than, say, the actual bomb plot having succeeded or Hitler simply deciding not to invade Russia when he did (you'd still have the "friendly" Russia you need without resorting to enormously different behavior and events). So, my suggestion is to find and focus on those events that with the least amount of change would produce your alternate path. Please don't take this as criticism, only a suggestion!

I like El Alamein as a pivotal point. You could easily extrapolate almost the same alt history without having to resort to Rommel killing Hitler (maybe allow Hitler to be killed later by the bomb plot to enable the alt timeline to continue). Remember, even with Hitler's incompetance, Germany still almost won the war!

Something to consider as a possible hole... Recall that the Germans were working on their heavy water experiments and, given the success they achieve in your alt history, may well have developed the atomic bomb before the U.S. and certainly at the same time. Thus, the U.S. would have been faced with an exchange of nuclear weapons if they opted to use them. We might well have opted not to use them in that case, preferring to rely on our ultimate industrial superiority to see us through using overwhelming conventional weapons. Also, the Germans had rocket technology, meaning a potential long distance (ICBM??) delivery system that we would not have been able to match. Again, a reason why we might well have not initiated the use of nukes (in fact, it might have been the Germans who initiated nukes!). In any event, the widespread, one-sided use of nukes that you describe seems unlikely. Food for thought!

Another general trend... The Germans were technically quite advanced with jet fighters (Me262, for instance), lacking only the production capacity due to allied attacks. In your alt history, Germany would have enjoyed unhindered production of jet fighters, Tiger tanks, etc. well before the allies.

An observation... With Britain in German hands, Russia tamed, Europe conquered, and an ever-growing fleet of U-Boats, the U.S. would have faced a daunting (bordering on impossible) task simply to convoy troops and equipment to whatever European battlefield. The logistical challenge for the U.S. would have been near-impossible.

Another possible hole... You mention retaking Britain. The invasion force would have been based in and launched from the U.S., I presume? Consider the number of vessels involved in the Normandy invasion which was just a simple crossing of the channel. Half of those vessels would have been unable to cross the Atlantic to launch the invasion of Britain. Consider what shape the troops would have been in after a weeks long crossing of the Atlantic to invade Britain. Seasickness alone would have debilitated the force!

An idea... As an alternate to the Phillipines scenario you describe, what about staging a massive naval attack on Rabaul with battleship on battleship combat while the carriers secure the skies and attack the harbor? I may be violating my own comments about the least amount of change!

A conclusion... Clearly, with the U-Boat threat even bigger than it was and the importance of convoy protection even greater, a major priority would have been better ASW escorts which I assume prompted your previously presented destroyer designs.

Hope this helps spark ideas for you! Thanks for sharing and please keep doing so. I look forward to more.

Regards,
Bob


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PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2010 7:27 pm 
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Carr, thanks a lot for your feedback, you've definitely generated some sparks :thumbs_up_1:

After some research I've generated some of my own as well. Freidman's DD book has a very good section on Postwar ASW development that has helped me make some decisions regarding my ships. My "Super DDE" has evolved into an ASW conversion of the Fletcher design. We converted some post-war in response to the growing Soviet sub force so it seemed the most logical as well as the easiest conversion to undertake during the war in my world.

I also read up on the development of the acoustic homing torpedo and discovered the long range (8.5 miles) Mk-35 21" surface fired acoustic torpedo. It was developed directly from the Mk-34 air launched homing torpedo which in turn was developed from the original Mk-24 FIDO. The Mk-35 dates back to 1946 so its easily conceivable that the we would have introduced this weapon into the fleet at about that time to combat the growing German U-Boat threat in the Atlantic.

In real life the Mk-35 joined the fleet in 1949 and the DDs began to receive them soon after. Although the weapons for the standard 21" diameter they were much shorter and therefore could not fit in the standard Mk-14/15 trainable torpedo tubes used on all wartime DDs and DEs. Several Fletchers had fixed torpedo tubes installed in the deck house directly under their original after torpedo tubes. These tubes were on the weather deck level and fired through ports in the bulkheads. Two tubes were provided for each side and were staggered to allow for reloading which could be accomplished in under 15 minutes.

My new Fletcher design will incorporate a similar torpedo arrangement but increase them to three tubes per side. 5"/38s will be scaled back to three mounts, one forward and two astern. There will be three to four quad 40mms or twin 3"/50s, retention of both stern DC racks, K guns reduced to two per side, and a three Hedgehog mounts installed beneath the bridge; one trainable in place of Mount 52 and two fixed in place of the two twin 40mms.

These will be conversions done to the existing group of DDs as they come in for overhauls or battle damage repair. Conversions are expected to take as little as a month or two at peak efficiency. At the height of the war a Fletcher could be built and commissioned in seven months so a weapons swap would take no time at all.

As far as the DDL design goes, I'm thinking of either having a new class constructed on the Atlanta Class hull or converting some or all of the Atlantas. In real life the Atlanta Class hull was seen as the best platform for the postwar hunter-killer ASW ships and the USS Norfolk (CLK-1) was built on one of those hulls. If I use them for my design and eliminate a lot of the clutter the top weight problem should be alleviated. Apparently the Atlantas were well liked for there speed and acceleration from a dead stop capabilities; qualities essential for chasing down the newer and faster subs.

I haven't finished working out the DDL design just yet. I'll be concentrating on the DDEs for now. Keep an eye out in the Tin Can GB thread for my Fletcher as soon as the mail man deliveries a package of DD kits :cool_2:

Any thoughts or ideas on the designs gents?

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1/700 Whiff USN Modernized CAs 1984
1/700 Whiff ASW Showdown - FFs vs SSGN 1984

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PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2010 10:04 pm 
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Cliffy B wrote:
Question gents, could a Fletcher power plant fit into a Butler Class DE hull? The main problem with the DEs was their lack of speed thus, they couldn't run with the main fleet.

A DE wasn't designed or intended to run with the main fleet. Bear in mind that DE's and DD's were designed to do opposite jobs, in a sense.

The classic mission of the DD is to escort the battle group with all the various associated tasks. Thus, the main requirements are speed (to keep up with the fast carriers/battleships) and AAW with secondary requirements of ASW and ASuW.

By contrast, the classic mission of the DE is to escort a convoy which mainly means ASW. ASW (at least in the WWII time frame) involved the DE and target submarine each trying to outmaneuver and outguess the other. For the DE, this required a tight turning radius rather than speed. Remember, a submerged sub's top speed was on the order of 10 kts, typically less. On a related note, the rate of advance of a convoy was on the order of 12 kts. For a DE, speed was not a requirement and could, in fact, be a negative - the faster a ship's speed, the greater the turning radius.

Turning radius is a function (among other factors) of the length to width ratio of the ship. The longer and narrower the ship, the greater it's turn radius. For example, the Fletchers had a length to width ratio of 9.6 and a turn radius of around 880 yds. A Buckley DE had a length to width ratio of 8.3 and a turn radius under the same conditions (speed, rudder angle) of 410 yds.

The conclusion is that hi speed is not desirable in a DE functioning in the ASW role. A "good" ASW DE should be "beamier" to allow a smaller turn radius.

I noted that your SuperDDE design at the start of this thread had a length to width ratio of 9.7 - slightly worse than a Fletcher, even. This would produce a very slow turning vessel. My suggestion is to consider making it "beamier", hence much more maneuverable, and reducing the speed requirement.

Now, you might be considering a SuperDE to sail with the main fleet. Consider, though, that a fleet DE was never seen as a need. The main defense against a sub was the speed of the fleet. Subs had nowhere near the speed to catch a fleet and could only be effective if dumb luck placed them in the direct path of the fleet. Successful sub attacks on fleet vessels were few and far between. Fletchers were adequate ASW platforms to conduct harassing attacks until the fleet could turn away and leave the sub behind. I would not see a fleet DE as a need, if that's what you were considering. I do, however, see a pressing need for convoy escort DE's in your alt history.

Hope this helps!

Regards,
Bob


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PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2010 12:19 pm 
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Learn something new everyday Carr, thanks! :thumbs_up_1:

While all of that certainly makes plenty of sense I did notice in Friedman's DD book that postwar speed became an issue with the escorts. The Soviets were making faster and quieter subs that the slower DEs just couldn't handle. We converted a lot of Fletchers and Sumners/Gearings into ASW DDEs to fill that gap and take care of the newer subs. I may have read it wrong but that was my understanding of the situation. In my little world the German's would have been cranking out newer and better U-boats in the later years; Type XXIs and beyond. We apparently had a real problem when it came to combating these new subs because they were so quiet, deeper diving, and faster. Our sonars of the time were only good to around 400' and these things could do twice that. Even our postwar DE designs had higher speeds but was that due to technological advancements with power plants or the need to counter faster subs?

Did the postwar rudder mods help the Fletcher's turning radi any? You mentioned making them "beamier", how much would you need? Wouldn't widening the ship destroy its hull form and in turn, its speed and handling characteristics? Just trying to understand how all of that works.

For grins, to get a Fletcher's Length to Beam ratio down to around 8.3 her beam would need to increase from 39' 8" to around 45', roughly an increase of 5' 4". Would that adversely affect their speed and maneuvering capabilities? Would it cut their turning radius down at all?

For comparison, my original Super DDE was to be 350' x 36' with a ratio of 9.7. With a beam increase of 6' to 42' the ratio drops to 8.3 again (the Butler Class's original ratio). Would the extra 50' in length be enough for an improved power plant giving it a higher top speed? I understand that its better to go slower when hunting the U-boats but having the capability to go 30+ knots doesn't mean they'll be doing that all the time. I figured it'd be useful to either catch back up to the convoy's a lot faster as well as screen the outer edges of the fleet. I know you said you didn't see much need for that but I'm thinking of them in the postwar environment. If they're able to reach and maintain fleet speed then they will be a lot more useful postwar instead of being decommed and sold almost immediately. If they're going to put all of this effort into the design and construction of these ships it seems like a better return if they don't instantly become obsolete the minute the armistice is signed. But that's just my mentality, I know that doesn't line up with the thinking of the day.

An increase of 5 or 6' doesn't sound like a whole lot (its only 2 or 3' on each side) but I'm not a nautical engineer so... :big_grin:

Anyway, I'd love to hear your thought's on the matter again. Also, if you were designing a new version of a DE as a follow on to the Butler Class, how would you go about doing so?

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1/700 Whiff USS Leyte and escorts 1984
1/700 Whiff USN Modernized CAs 1984
1/700 Whiff ASW Showdown - FFs vs SSGN 1984

Slipway:
1/700 Whiff USN ASW Hunter Killer Group Dio 1984


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PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2010 2:25 pm 
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I'm just saying, the DDL could serve the purpose of Radar Picket...considering how apparently underarmed the DDs were for this role

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