The Ship Model Forum

Hey guys, I always thought it be neat to design USN equivalent to the Kirovs and figured it would make a nice design exercise/thought experiment for us. I "might" build/draw this in the far future but for right now lets just think and have fun.

So, what if the USN decided to build a ship rivaling the Kirov CGNs? In other words, what could the USN produce with a hull of similar dimensions and displacement?

I want to explore two different versions; one made during the Cold War (1980s) and a modern one (2000s).

This is to be a pure whiff design but grounded in reality. Feel free to use any equipment that the USN DOES use or INTENDED to use in the given time periods. Be creative please!!!

For reference here are the Kirov-Class Specs:
827 x 94 x 30 (max in feet)
24,300-28,000 tons (light and full load)
COSAN Propulsion (nuke and steam) *20 knots max on nuke*
140,000 shp
32+ knots
3" armor around her reactor (maybe?)

For comparison, an Iowa-Class BB:
887 x 108 x 36 (max in feet)
45,000-58,000 tons
Steam
212,000 shp
32+ knots
Protection against 16" shellfire

Go wild with your ideas but to maintain some semblance of reality I'll say keep them close to the price of a new, era appropriate CVN.

I envision a ship with a large amount of VLS cells, small, medium, and possibly large caliber guns. With a ship of her size utilizing US equipment I'd say her primary missions would be AAW (if you so desire, certainly enough room and power for AEGIS), ASuW, Strike, ASW (self defense only), and NGFS (plenty of room, providing you don't want all missiles).

My only caveat would be include armor!!! A ship that big with such a large weapon load needs protection. Doesn't need BB armor but I'd say CA/CL level would be sufficient to protect engineering and her magazines, IE the old fashioned, yet worthwhile armored box. You don't want a speed boat full of C4 or a 155mm shore battery to wreck your brand new $5 billion battlecruiser do you?

Some ideas:

- Nuclear, steam, gas turbine propulsion or a combination?
- AEGIS or NTU? Something else?

- Guns
- 57mm, 3"/62, 5"/54, 6"/50, 8"/55, 12"/50, larger?
- protected mounts/turrets?

- Helos
- Above decks or below decks hangar? How large?
- Weapon distribution

- Even, IE guns and missiles fore and aft?
- Uneven, IE guns aft and missiles forward or the opposite?

- Flag facilities or pure combatant?

Please don't get too hung up on the "why would build this" factor. I'm intending this as more of a design exercise then a why do we need this debate. That being said, use whatever justification you deem appropriate for whatever you want the ship to have and/or do.


Above all else, please be creative and have fun! Feel free to theorize, sketch, and/or anything else you desire. I look forward to the discussion!
-Mike

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Drawing Board:
1/700 Whiff USS Leyte and escorts 1984
1/700 Whiff USN Modernized CAs 1984
1/700 Whiff ASW Showdown - FFs vs SSGN 1984

Slipway:
1/700 Whiff USN ASW Hunter Killer Group Dio 1984

My thinking would be a USS Virginia on steroids. Bit boring but pretty practical and it would fit the USNs design style of gradual improvement and scaling up on known design and technology.

-size the hull up to roughly Iowa dimensions but keep the shape
-enlarge bridge slightly with command facilities
-modify masts to carry early version phased array radar panels (or import the "beehive" but I would prefer the look of the low wide bridge on Virginia with phased arrays about a third of the way up a pair of enlarged masts)
-full nuclear propulsion (US had the tech) on four shafts
-same protection as Nimitz (kevlar and/or composite armour of similar thickness)
-stern helideck with under-deck hangar
-two 5" automatics, one front one back, closest to the superstructure (Virginia layout)
-one VLS full of Tomahawks (124 mixed land attack, anti-ship and nuclear) forward of the front 5"
-two VLSs full of SAMs, one front one back
-Harpoon tubes midships pointing outwards on each side

The problem here is not designing a ship, it's inventing a weapons system and a combat doctrine that is totally alien to the country we're trying to design for. Harpoon/Tomahawk are capable ASMs but the US never had anything close to the capability of the Soviet anti-ship missiles (Mach 2+, 1,000+ kg warheads). A US equivalent Kirov would rely on volume of fire even more than the Soviet counterpart, with each missile being more likely to be shot down and less likely to guarantee target annihilation on a single hit.

Overall, a ship like this would end up being more of a command ship with an overgrown land attack capability, or an AAW escort that substitutes smaller ships (say two or three DDGs) for one bigger, more capable and more versatile ship.

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Vlad

Pretty good Vlad.
But you forgot the CIWS. 4 would suffice. I would like to see 8inch RF singles instead of the 5s.
After all it is a "heavy cruiser". throw in 4 corner 3in twins. Forget the helos. That's what the FFs and FFGs are for. Hangers, even below decks, take up weapons space and cannot be protected.
But I would definitely include the large bow sheer the Kirovs had. Makes for a good sea boat.
Z

On the other hand, a long range option would be AV8s This would be a strike ship so carrying 4 AV8s would be a nice strike package. You could combine the VLS areas flat surface with a flight deck area.
with the Harriers, you wouldn't need to be so tethered to CV air cover.
This is fun.

The USN had the proposed strike cruiser and the CGN-42 designs which were in some regard an enlarged Virginia with Aegis.CGN-42 would have been the fifth Virginia but would have had Aegis. There were also proposals floated to convert the Long Beach (CGN-9) to a strike cruiser with the 8" mounts and Aegis.

I think starting with the Des Moines class (a cruiser after all), keeping the front two turrets and tearing the rest down to the hull weather deck and building a new superstructure with Aegis capability. The hull has good armor. The rapid fire triple 8" mounts give her some serious naval/shore bombardment firepower. I would envision putting a VLS aft unless a flight deck for AV-8's were worked into the design.

The Long Beach also had some decent armor although not as good as the Des Moines, but better than the aluminum cans we currently see in the USN. Her hull would be a good start point as well. I think in both cases the hull really is about the extent of what you would work with. Completely new superstructure and weapons fit. In the end it would likely be cheaper to just build completely new though.

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"There seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today"

Adding AV8s would make sense because of the strike and AAW capability, but then we're basically making a USN clone of the Kiev, not the Kirov.

Having said that, the 8" trips of Des Moines would not be a bad idea for such a ship if you want close support rather than super long range combat. Des Moines is still about 10,000t lighter than Kirov, so there is scope there to scale her up. You could keep the armament at 9 8" guns all forward with a flight deck at the back (think IJN Mogami 1944 layout but with Des Moines or Virginia hull shape and Aegis equipped bridge). Her beam in this scaled up configuration might allow VLS cells to line the sides, midships where the superstructure is narrow (think, no funnels) rather than needing to be at the ends.

I imagine on the 28,000t we have to play with you could carry the VLS package of a Ticonderoga in side silos only, big guns at the bow and quite a bit of air capability (rotary or otherwise) at the stern.

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Vlad

The Soviet Navy built the Kirov class as flagships for the forces assigned to protecting the SSBN bastions in event of war with the USA/NATO.
The large SSM batteries were meant to deter CVN from approaching to closely to the bastions.

My American Kirov is meant to spearhead a USN/NATO entry into the Kara sea, and White sea to attack the Soviet SSBN bastions. I won't worry about budgets in this exercise.

1. All Steel construction except for funnels and upper superstructure.
2. Primary AAW roll, Secondary ASW roll.
3. massive subdivision, fully automatic fire suppression system.
A. Ship designed to be able to absorb multiple hits from SSM such as SS-N-22
B. Massive redundant power generation
C. Best AAW possible. Also unique for a USN ship, backup AAW radars.
D. Belt and deck armor likely not work. Armored "vaults" to protect vital systems from blast and splinter damage.
E. Design must be capable of withstanding multiple under keel torpedo explosions. (in serial).
F. Point ASW defense must be strong.
G. Nuclear has too many possible complications, CODAGAG
4. assuming building date between 1978 and 1984:
A. Aegis AAW system 2 Mk26 mod 2 guided missile launch systems. and one Mk26 mod1
B. SPS-48E connected to Aegis system in the event of loss of any phased array on AN/SPY-1A.
C. 4 AN/SPG-62 illuminaters, 2 AN/SPG-60 as backups along with AN/SPQ-9A for AAW gunfire.
D. Long range 2D radar AN/SPS-49, with a backup AN/SPS-49.

I'll work on this over lunch or the weekend.

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║ Seasick║
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