The Ship Model Forum

Does this mean then that 507A & G10 and 507C & G45 will remain different colours even though we now know they were the same colour. The only difference being that the 507s were a different gloss level to the later G series?

Also is B20 made up from equal parts of B15 and B30?

I wonder if the mixing of B15 & B30 to make B20 is where someone got the wrong idea that 507B was 50/50 507A & 507C.

Dick I can't thank you enough for trying to clear up the long standing mis-information about several WEM colors. I thought G45 was a light gray when I got some from WEM it was a yellow gray. Looking at the Hood color film 507B looked to be a mid-blue. Not what you get mixing 507A & 507C . Thank you so much!
John

If you want to match the AP507B from the charts in Humbrol, then Humbrol 34 (white), 77 (navy blue) and 140 (gull grey), all mixed 1:1:1, is perfect

Thanks EJ ! I'll give it a try.
John

I don't think so. 507B wasn't a new colour introduced in WW2 by mixing 50/50 507A & 507C. 507B existed as the RN Home Fleet dark Grey in the interwar period. The 507A introduced in 1939 was the same shade as the existing Home Fleet Dark grey colour of 507B. FYI No interwar Admiralty Fleet Order mentions 507A. The two colours always mentioned are 507B and 507C.

Hi,

I'm getting a little confused by all this now.

Do some of the posts above imply that any references to 507A in the WW2 period relating to a dark grey (as per Raven's four volumes) are incorrect? Does this mean that the dark greys used were mixed paints - from 507B and black?

I can see where the description of of G45 as a green comes from, as Alan Raven's Vol 3 has paint 'chips' on the back cover, with G45 as a grey green (not unlike Luftwaffe RLM02).

Also, as someone else has mentioned, when I received some WEM 507C paint I was surprised to see a yellowish grey rather than a bluish grey.

Intriguing stuff.

Cheers

GrahamB

What it means is that 507B and WW2 507A and G10 are one and the same colour. The only difference being that the 507B formula had pattern 11 enamel added to it which added some gloss. Pattern 11 is described as Dark Grey Enamel to the same shade as 507B.

507B was introduced to the RN in 1915 and 507C in 1916. 507B was not, as it has been indicated in various books introduced in 1940 as a 50/50 mix of 507A and 507C.

All AFOs in the interwar period only mention two greys for the RN, 507B and 507C with 507B being the “Home Stations” colour and 507C being the “Foreign Stations” colour.

507B was, like 507C, originally a pure grey i.e. black and white. Blue wasn’t added to the formulae until the 1920s.

Various AFOs state that “Admiralty Pattern 507A paint and Admiralty Pattern 507C paint may, however, be used in lieu of A.1/G10 and A.1/G45 respectively, when desired; they have the same colour but contain more oil and are therefore a little glossier when first applied. They are also rather more durable.”

A.1 paints are described as Half Gloss Type and A.2 described as Full Gloss Type.

So, in modern terms, 507A would be described as a gloss and G10 as a Satin/Low Sheen of the same colour.

You can see from above that 507C and G45 are the same colours but again different levels of gloss.

The formulae for 507B/A and G10 includes Pattern 370A “Blue Black Paste Home Fleet Shade”. 507C and G45 use Pattern 371 "Blue Black Paste". I have yet to see a formula for these paints which includes green paste.

The only mention of the 50/50 mix was pointed out on another Forum by Dick where CB3098 states that if G20 is not available, “for G.20, us(!) a mixture of equal parts of Light Grey Admiralty Pattern 507C, and Dark Grey Admiralty Pattern 507A.” this mixture is not given a number or any other reference. Maybe someone read it at one stage and decided that a 50/50 mixture 507A and 507C would be called 507B.

So you don’t have to buy a lot of different paints for WW2 greys. The question is, which of the Colorcoats greys for 507A, B and G10 or 507C and G45 is the one to use?

Many thanks for this. My point/query was really, to what is Alan Raven (and others) referring when he is describing the darkest of the three greys in those many schemes (including the Alexandria patterns) that are prevalent in the 1940-41 period (as per his Volume 1)? He says 507A. This is either wrong and is a mixed colour (the íntermediate tone being 507B), OR it is actually 507B and the intermediate tone is the mixed colour (say half-way 507B/507C).

Cheers,

GrahamB

That is the million dollar question. I assume Alan Raven has documentary evidence to show that 3 shades of grey were in use and specified for those ships and schemes in Volume 1. However, there were three 507s in use for a while, 507A, 507B and 507C after AFO 211 19th Jan 1939 added a new colour code 507A called “Dark grey paint, Home Fleet shade, for other than weatherwork” and changed the description of Pattern 507B to “Paint mixed dark grey, Home Fleet shade, for weatherwork”. 507A used the same formula as pattern 507B except not adding the 10 pints of enamel to every cwt which is in the 507B formula. To me, as the enamel is stated to be the same shade as 507B, this would produce 507A as the same colour as 507B. Unless by leaving out the enamel produces a darker shade of grey. Maybe someone with a good knowledge of paint, pigments and paste might be able to explain it.

Therefore, in 1939 through to the introduction of the MS series, the RN had only two shades of standard grey not three.

The AFOs issued after 211 in 1939 titled, “Painting of HM ships in time of peace”, simply use the description of dark grey and light grey with mentioning any 507 pattern number. AFO 3935 17/10/1940 suspended the use of enamels for the duration of the war. As a result, when stocks ran out, 507B would no longer be available. AFO 4074 18/9/1941 officially discontinued 507B.

There is nothing in an AFO or other order mentioning a 50/50 mix of any sort back then. So where this theory originates, I have no idea.

By the Alexandria pattern, do you mean the two tone dark and light grey scheme? If so, this was not a wartime innovation. The attached memo from the RAN’s archives indicates that destroyers were to be painted this manner by CB3016 1937 and 1934. Photos exist of destroyers in this scheme before the outbreak of war. As they were before AFO 211 in January 1939, the scheme would have been 507B and 507C.

The memo also states that the ships of the Home Fleet are painted Home Fleet grey. It does not differentiate between 507A and B.

Hopefully Alan Raven can explain the details and documentation behind the three shades of grey and 507B being described as a medium grey. The 50/50 mix does not seem to appear in any of his writings that I have.

Graham,

I think a case by case re-evaluation may be needed as some of what was identified as 507A may in fact have been black as for example in this scheme on Jupiter.

Best wishes

Hi,

thanks both. It is always a problem when official documentation is seemingly at odds with perceived evidence or is simply lacking (lost?). I've had the same experience with Luftwaffe colours (going back 40 years or so). I am absolutely certain that several early schemes were in place for one particular aircraft (Ju 52) and that current and past descriptions are erroneous - but can't prove it for lack of any official documents.

What I meant by the Alexandria camouflage types were the numerous 2 or 3 grey 'splinter' or disruptive patterns described (and named) by Alan Raven (Volume 1, pages 38-53). He mentions the use of 507A, 507B and 507C as well as black and mixed ("graduations") or generic (eg. ''medium") greys on these Mediterranean-based ships.

Like you, I'm still baffled by the discrepancy between, for example, 507C and G45 in given paint charts and paint ranges if they are really the same colour.

Happy New Year to all.

GrahamB

HMS Monmouth (1914) being rigged
Naiad next
Plans and kits in place to do some camouflaged/dazzle pre-dreadnoughts Revenge, Commonwealth and London

I have a few books on camouflage and the Volume you speak of is the only time I have seen “The Alexandria Type” mentioned. Alan Raven states in came in in August 1940. Interestingly on page 9 is a similar scheme on the Home Fleet ship Cairo.

It could be a coincidence but I found the attached Home Fleet Temporary Memorandum dated August 1940 in the files relating to HMS Australia which has a two tone scheme introduced in a dazzle pattern which would fit the same description. It also has the formula for deck paint and a Confidential Order from the 1st Cruiser Squadron.

Now where do we find more of these Home Fleet Temporary memoranda? Presumably Mediterranean Fleet issued them too. If the 1st Cruiser Squadron issued confidential orders, where are these and ant others for the other Cruiser Squadrons? Did Destroyer Flotillas issue such order too?

Hi,

I'm going to keep them separate for the time being at least. In reality they are very close, but for whatever reasons the samples supplied by Alan Raven must have had the subtle variances observed. There could be several reasons for it but see no reason to change anything at present.

Someone asked me directly a while ago if G45 should be a coffee colour because his fairly old WEM tin appeared that way. Any produced coffee colour defies my explanation as the codes we manufacture show no revision and the ones we got aren't coffee.



AP 507s on the left, Gs on the right.

_________________
James Duff
Sovereign Hobbies Ltd
http://www.sovereignhobbies.co.uk

Current build:
HMS Imperial D09 1/350
http://www.shipmodels.info/mws_forum/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=167151

I got one of the tan cans new back in 2014 and contacted John about it. I had already managed to get some real paint colour matched to it by my local paint shop and they said the formula was just about identical to BS4800 10B21 which happens to be the colour the RAF used on their Victors towards the end. I got some 10B21 mixed up and you can see from the attached what it looks like. 10B21 is the glossier stripe on the bottom of the chip.

One print run of the CB3098 also had a tan G45.

Interesting. For those who don't know, the Victor colour referred to is RAF Hemp.

As for the G45/507C issue, does MS4A come into this as as spoiler, meaning that there could also be confusion of paint samples?
These warm greys do not seem to conform to the neutral or cool (bluish) greys according to the paint formulae given.

Cheers,

GrahamB

If it wasn't for the reprint showing tan, I would think it was a manufacturing error as I've just noticed that Humbrol have Hemp as 168.

Are Colorcoats and Humbrol both made by the same paint manufacturer for their respective companies?

The MS4A chip and paint is more a pale green than tan and is shown with a reflectivity of 55%.

The colourcoats are a perfect match with the Snyder & Short colour charts and these are definitely not Humbrol-based; so there is no production error.

I didn't say they were Humbrol based. Colorcoats/Sovereign are not paint manufacturers, they are sellers of paint made to their order.

Neither Humbrol, Colorcoats, Phoenix or Xtracolor state on their tinlets the country of manufacture let alone the manufacturer's name. Humbrol’s website states that its range of enamel paint as well as their new acrylic sprays are now produced in London and Manchester.

I would have thought that there would be few companies capable of producing model enamel paint. If one of these produces paints for both Humbrol, Xtracolor or Phoenix (who both also do Hemp) and Colorcoats, a mix up could occur and go un-noticed.

The G45 Colorcoats I and others received in 2014 did not match the S&S colour charts. It was tan and matched the tan colour in one of White Ensign's reprintints of CB3098. I have two copies, the one has G45 as a "real" grey, the other has G45 as a tan colour. I attached a scan of the tan reprint.

One thought, I have ever only bothered with Colorcoats naval paints. Do/did(?) they have an aircraft range?

It's actually a shame that the tin does not include the country of origin, as the whole range of Humbrol tins from China is unreliable. IIRC production has been moved back so you can be reasonably sure what's on the lid is also in the tin.

The colour charts have several versions of some colours and the difference between them can be fairly large. The version of B6 on the first charts is a particularly vile blue tint (I do not know what the right color is, similar to early WWII AP507B which I took from the colour charts are true). Incidentally, Humbrol 34 (white), 77 (navy blue) and 140 (gull grey) mixed 1:1:1 are a perfect match for the S&S colour charts version AP507B (correct or not). I tried mixing this version myself when WEM had resupply problems using the Humbrol Paint colour system book. Unfortunately, mixing them for each use is troublesome and storing premixed-paint is troublesome; most paint jars are not airtight and the paint spoils (Badger paint jars == crap).

The colourcoats do indeed include a range of aircraft colours.

I can't / won't speak for the rest but all Colourcoats are made in the UK, and on the same set of mixing machines with computer controlled pigment injection furthermore. Each batch we have manufactured is test-carded and checked against a control sample we hold to ensure they're the same as before. The lids are sprayed at the factory with an off-take from the batch too so it would be immediately obvious to us if a new batch varied from a previous batch even without opening the tins - although it's never happened in the time we've owned the brand.

Humbrol have number stamped tinlids so I strongly suspect they have a separate manufacturing line of tinlids which are stamped and sprayed independently to batch-filling their tins. It's unlikely that the same factory has 2 different manufacturing procedures, and it's not a service we get from our factory. All points to Humbrol being manufactured elsewhere.

The factory we use does not discuss other commercial clients which is a policy I'm happy with.

2 points of fact I can state are firstly that the quantities of pigments the machines inject are stored using order codes known only to us and the factory, but they're not descriptive - as in someone couldn't accidently punch in the wrong grey between different brands even if they were all made at the same place. It would be much harder and require deliberate cross-referencing for the factory to produce us a batch of something vaguely similar for but to another client's specs than it would be to just make what we ordered - so any confusion in colours will not be factory sourced from Colourcoats' perspective at least. It was John Snyder who oversaw the establishment of the colours with this factory for White Ensign Models back in the day, so it's no accident they exactly match Snyder & Short's research.

Secondly, we also sell RAF Hemp, and it's not the same colour as either our AP507C or G45 products. The Hemp is definately more yellow and brown than the aforementioned naval greys. I'm out at my day-job at the moment so can't pose the same tin-lid photo as above right now.

_________________
James Duff
Sovereign Hobbies Ltd
http://www.sovereignhobbies.co.uk

Current build:
HMS Imperial D09 1/350
http://www.shipmodels.info/mws_forum/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=167151