The Ship Model Forum

Just judging from what I see on NavSource, it seems only Juneau has that particular arrangement. Atlanta no, San Juan's is further aft, not sure about San Diego. My two cents.

Ok... Not Hornet... My Imagination.... BUT....

You are also right about the "painting" on the photograph.

Someone has airbrushed the side of the Atlanta-class CLAA so that it appears a single color.

Also... Remember the complaints about Ms. 12M being that "at a distance, the shades run together into a uniform grey?

Well, in these photos we are essentially seeing that with the Atlanta-class CLAA. The same is true of the other, overexposed/blown-out image of the Juneau.

The distance and photographic methods caused the ships to appear to be further away, and thus their cammo blended together.

MB

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1/700 (All Fall 1942):
HIJMS Nagara
HIJMS Aoba & Kinugasa
USS San Francisco
USS Helena
USS St. Louis
USS Laffey & Farenholt
HIJMS Sub-Chasers No. 4 - 7
HIJMS Sub-Chasers No. 13 - 16

Dan

I rechecked all of mine and the navsource photos. There is a 1/43 San Diego photo showing midship rafts on the port side. See my 42 San Diego photos on page 9--no rafts in the midship position on either side.

Fred

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FRED BRANYAN

Matthew, the carrier is definitely Hornet at Santa Cruz. There is no doubt. There is a lighter streak in the middle of the island, but that is where it was doused with burning fuel from an aircraft that crashed the front of the stack. Also visible is Northampton preparing to tow the carrier (which by itself would prove Hornet's ID) and another Atlanta class CL in the background. Since both Juneau and San Diego were in Hornet's screen, it is all consistent.

That makes me think it's a workable hypothesis for the latter half of 1942. Positioning was probably at each captain's prerogative. I think you can use it as a marker.

My statement (unabridged) Is:

"(So, the thought that it is/was) Not (the) Hornet (is) My Imagination."

I was not trying to say that it wasn't the Hornet, but that it was the Hornet, and it was only my imagination that it wasn't.

MB

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1/700 (All Fall 1942):
HIJMS Nagara
HIJMS Aoba & Kinugasa
USS San Francisco
USS Helena
USS St. Louis
USS Laffey & Farenholt
HIJMS Sub-Chasers No. 4 - 7
HIJMS Sub-Chasers No. 13 - 16

USS SAN DIEGO did have two life rafts installed amidships, at least in a February 1943 photo I have. In a June 1942 photo at Pearl Harbor she doesn't have the two life rafts located there. So at some point between those two dates she had the rafts installed there.

Just to sum up where we are at with the Oct '42 photo.
1. The photo was definitely taken of the Hornet salvage operation at Santa Cruz.
2. San Diego and Juneau were part of the Hornet group with no other Atlanta's present in that group.
3. It has been captioned as Juneau in a couple of different places.
4. The Sept '42 photo of Juneau with Wasp survivors shows a superstructure of uniform color rather than the striped camo carried earlier.
5. The Sept '42 photo still shows the Juneau's wave pattern on the port side of the hull, but that was not evident on the transom. (Starboard side not visible and is therefore unknown.) So the lighting conditions shouldn't have totally washed out the superstructure camo.
6. Rick's Feb '43 photo of San Diego shows a uniform color on her hull, but the superstructure camo is clearly still present.
7. The cruiser in the Santa Cruz photo shows a uniform color on the hull and superstructure (except on the after stack where strong shadows are present).

To me it seem that the Santa Cruz photo must show Juneau since the superstructure camo is not visible in conditions where it should have been if present. And they certainly did not paint the old MS-12Mod camo back onto the San Diego's superstructure later. With only the two possible cruisers, Juneau and San Diego, and San Diego apparently being ruled out by the lack of camo, this leaves only Juneau, whether or not the switch to MS-21 is documented anywhere else. Do we have any other possibilities to be considered?

I am trying to find an image of the Juneau that was at a port (I want to say Mare Island), that showed the Port Side of the ship.

The Photos were actually of another ship (CA or DD, I cannot recall which), but the image showed a very clear shot of Juneau's late-42 Cammo Pattern (as worn in Guadalcanal, prior to sinking). The Juneau was at a dock adjacent to the ship that was the subject of the photos.

I have done a search, but without knowing the name of that other ship, I have been stymied.

I have thought that it might be a good idea to have those photos in this thread.

MB

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Working on:


1/700 (All Fall 1942):
HIJMS Nagara
HIJMS Aoba & Kinugasa
USS San Francisco
USS Helena
USS St. Louis
USS Laffey & Farenholt
HIJMS Sub-Chasers No. 4 - 7
HIJMS Sub-Chasers No. 13 - 16

Matthew, I think the photo you are looking for was linked by Fred Branyan in post on October 9, 2015 in this thread. You replied to his posting on October 10. The photo is of Quincy with Juneau in the background. The photo was taken at Brooklyn Navy Yard before Juneau was sent to the Pacific. Based on the time frame of the photo it cannot be used as a final determining factor as to the paint scheme Juneau in October and November 1942.

Save maybe for the fact that the other image, earlier in this thread of the Laffey and Juneau, where people have said the Juneau "looks uniformly white/grey."

But, as I have discovered the image still shows the Juneau, at Guadalcanal wearing the exact same Camouflage pattern. As I keep saying.

I am trying to get a photo rendered that will show this pattern more effectively. I have a photo that shows this, but it is too large to post here, and any reduction of the photo in size makes the pattern difficult to see (save on the hull). Well, it is already difficult to see on the superstructure, but it is there.

But, if you have good eyes, you can see the wave-pattern on the side of the hull in the un-enhanced photo on the previous page.

And, as I keep saying, the image of the Juneau is simply overexposed, leaving it to look like it is one color/shade, when in reality it is still wearing the same cammo pattern.

MB

Edit:

Looking at the photos of the Quincy, there are TWO Atlanta-class CLAAs to the starboard of the USS Quincy. The shot from the stern of the Quincy looking forward shows an Atlanta-class CLAA that is too far forward to be the same ship as the Juneau (not to mention that the Bow Camouflage pattern is not consistent amidships with what we see amidship with the Juneau).

Now this raises a question of which other Atlanta-class CLAA this is.

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Working on:


1/700 (All Fall 1942):
HIJMS Nagara
HIJMS Aoba & Kinugasa
USS San Francisco
USS Helena
USS St. Louis
USS Laffey & Farenholt
HIJMS Sub-Chasers No. 4 - 7
HIJMS Sub-Chasers No. 13 - 16

Matthew, the other ship was the Quincy (CA-39) and the location was New York Navy Yard (Brooklyn NY).
http://www.history.navy.mil/our-collect ... a-39-.html
http://www.history.navy.mil/our-collect ... a-39-.html

Thanks, found it...

See above comment.

Turns out that there are probably two Atlanta-class CLAAs in that image. The bow of the Atlanta-class ship showing is too far forward to be the same ship we see the port-stern of when looking toward the stern of the Quincy.

MB

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OMG LOOK! A signature

Working on:


1/700 (All Fall 1942):
HIJMS Nagara
HIJMS Aoba & Kinugasa
USS San Francisco
USS Helena
USS St. Louis
USS Laffey & Farenholt
HIJMS Sub-Chasers No. 4 - 7
HIJMS Sub-Chasers No. 13 - 16

Aside from the life raft placement, I can't think of one. I realize that positioning a life raft isn't rocket science but, it seems to me these midship rafts are lashed to a rigid frame and that rigid frame is not in place on San Diego in the PH photo of June, 1942 that Rick posted. Her DANFS entry indicates that San Diego was basically on the line from immediately after that PH photo until after November 15 when she sailed to Espiritu Santo, and then Auckland. I see this as the earliest time that she could have had any sort of refit work done. Rick's 1943 posting seems to bear that out.

So, if you couple the raft positions with the paint (or lack thereof), it further indicates Juneau. My two cents.

I mentioned that as a possibility as well after looking at the high quality images, but wasn't so motivated so as to find a plan of the docks and lay things out to see for sure.

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Tracy White -Researcher@Large

"Let the evidence guide the research. Do not have a preconceived agenda which will only distort the result."
-Barbara Tuchman

Turns out you were right.

MB

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OMG LOOK! A signature

Working on:


1/700 (All Fall 1942):
HIJMS Nagara
HIJMS Aoba & Kinugasa
USS San Francisco
USS Helena
USS St. Louis
USS Laffey & Farenholt
HIJMS Sub-Chasers No. 4 - 7
HIJMS Sub-Chasers No. 13 - 16

Dan,

The main supports for the life raft support "frame" that the midships rafts are attached to are the same supports for the 20-mm wing platform used in both photos.

From what I have gathered (from her DANFS entry and from the CL53 Reunion website chronological history of SAN DIEGO) USS SAN DIEGO arrived at Pearl Harbor on 6 June 1942 and departed on 15 June as an escort for HORNET, but apparently she operated in and out of Pearl while an escort to HORNET during training until 17 August {Note I have an entry from USS RUSSELL War Diary that SAN DIEGO and ATLANTA returned to Pearl on 26 June 1942} (whether she went into the yard doesn't matter much since installing life rafts isn't a complicated installation) so the photo dated 14 June 1942 (whether that is the actual date of the photo or a turned in date??) could be taken just before she got life rafts installed there.

Oh...

And, I was wrong about their being possibly two Atlanta-class ships.

Well.... Turns out it is probably just one after all: The Juneau.

What gave it away?

Well, downloading the High Resolution image of the ships gave me a high enough resolution to zoom in on the bow of the Atlanta-class CLAA...

And.... it has the number "52" on it.... That would make it the Juneau.

Now... It could be that the stern belongs to another ship (I am looking for plans of Mare Island during WWII to see if Two Atlantas could fit there - I am thinking not at this point, considering they would be much longer than the USS Quincy).

I will need to finish rendering the entire port side of the ship in the photo of her and the Laffey to see if it shows the same pattern at the bow (The pattern I have extracted is a simple wave pattern that goes at least to the forward stack).

MB

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OMG LOOK! A signature

Working on:


1/700 (All Fall 1942):
HIJMS Nagara
HIJMS Aoba & Kinugasa
USS San Francisco
USS Helena
USS St. Louis
USS Laffey & Farenholt
HIJMS Sub-Chasers No. 4 - 7
HIJMS Sub-Chasers No. 13 - 16

I think you missed something above:

_________________
Tracy White -Researcher@Large

"Let the evidence guide the research. Do not have a preconceived agenda which will only distort the result."
-Barbara Tuchman

If you need a view of New York Navy Yard here is one from mid-1941, a year early, but it shows the layout.