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PostPosted: Sun Aug 22, 2010 2:07 pm 
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hello, thank you i thouck qbout it too, but eith search i found more resources, take a look

i investigated and uss cassin fought in the same battles uss johnston, had this scheme in oct 1944, look at this:

USS Cassin Young
Image
1/350 USS Cassin Young -793 (Yankee Model Works)
My basic references were Jeff Herne's The kit used was Blue Water Navy's (now Yankee Modelworks kit) USS Johnston Fletcher Class destroyer. Since I wanted to model a deatroyer using one of the distruptive camouflage measures, I elected to model the USS Cassin Young--especially since there are quite a few references and photos of the Young.

My basic reference was J. Scott Harmon's "U.S.S. Cassin Young (DD-793)" book. Other references were Raven's "Fletcher-Class Destroyers" and Herne's "Warship Perspectives, Fletcher, Gearing and Sumner Class Destroyers in World War Two".

The kit model's lenght is approximately 11/32" too short or about 1/360 scale so I reduced the Alan Chesley line and camouflage drawings in the Harmon book to 1/360 scale at a local print shop. Comparing those drawings(and other Fletcher line drawings) to the kit, I determined the foreward bridge superstructure and gun mount 51 were 3/16" too far aft. I used a razor saw to carefully remove the bridge superstructure and repositioned it and the 51 gun ring 3/16" foreward. (Actually, the kit is acceptable without this modification; but, I wanted my model to be slighty more accurate.)
The lower hull (this is a two piece hull kit) was about 1/8" shorter than the upper hull. I elected to cut the lower hull in two sections cutting near the stern with a razor saw. Then, I matched the stern and bows glueing with 5-minute epoxy, filled the resulting 1/8" gap with scrap resin and super glue, filled all mating lines with 3-M Acryl-Blue Glazing Putty, primed with Dupli-Color Filler Primer (outside using an respirator--vapors are bad), and sanded with 400-600 wet/dry sanding paper. I painted the model as the Young appeared in 1944 in the Measure 32/7D scheme using the camouflage drawing and The Floating Drydock Measure 32/7D camouflage sheet. I masked and air brushed Model Masters Marine Acryl 5-L light gray and Dull Black for vertical surfaces above the water line and Boottop Black and Anti-fouling Red below. The decks were hand painted using Poly Scale 20-B Deck Blue and 5-O Ocean Gray.

Minor modifications were made to reflect the Young's configuration--moved the mid-ship 20mm gun shielding, scratched-built stack platforms, added a Sonar dome made from resin scraps and slightly modified the aft 40mm structure. The mast and prop shafts were replaced with brass tubing. Non-kit parts used were L'Arsenal's 26' whale boats and Mk 51 directors (the kit's are acceptable; but, these are more detailed), Tom's Modelworks SC-2 radar (the kit's appear to be over-scale), and Gold Medal Models's floater net baskets. The 20mm guns were a combination of L'Arsenal (base, gun carrige & shield), kit (gun barrel), and GMM (wheel). Rigging was .002", .003", and .004" nylon fishing line for halyards, radio wire, and supporting lines, respectively.

The model took approximately 90-100 hours to complete.

Overall, this is an excellent kit with outstanding photo-etch (well-detailed and very forgiving when there are mis-steps). The "railing/life-lines" are especially nice with its delicate netting. (However, the pre-measured photo-etch railings need to be cut into smaller sections for the bow and stern locations to prevent warp/mis-shaping after glueing as the provided sections are straight and don't match the deck line curve.)
Richard Sliwka


USS Cassin Young (DD-793), a Fletcher-class destroyer, was a ship of the United States Navy named for Captain Cassin Young (1894–1942), who was awarded the Medal of Honor for his heroism at Pearl Harbor and killed in the Naval Battle of Guadalcanal.
Cassin Young (DD-793) was launched 12 September 1943 by Bethlehem Steel Corp., San Pedro, California; sponsored by Mrs. C. Young; and commissioned 31 December 1943, Commander E. T. Schrieber in command.
After serving in World War II, including the Battle of Leyte and the Battle of Okinawa, Cassin Young continued in active service until 1960. She is preserved today as a memorial ship, berthed at Boston Navy Yard in Boston, Massachusetts, across from the USS Constitution.
1944
Cassin Young arrived at Pearl Harbor 19 March 1944 to complete her training before sailing on to Manus, where she joined the massive Fast Carrier Task Force (then called TF 58, at other times called TF 38, depending on whether the overall organization was called 5th Fleet or 3rd Fleet). On 28 April, this force sortied for air attacks on Japanese strongholds at Truk, Woleai, Satawan, and Ponape, during which Cassin Young operated as picket ship, assigned to warn her group of possible enemy counterattack.
She returned to Majuro, and then Pearl Harbor for further training before reporting to Eniwetok 11 June to join the screen of escort carriers assigned to covering duty in the invasion of Saipan 4 days later. In addition to radar picket and screening duty, she was also called upon for inshore fire support. As the battle for Saipan raged ashore, escort carriers of Cassin Young's group launched attacks on the island, as well as sorties to neutralize enemy air fields on Tinian, Rota, and Guam. Similar operations supporting the subsequent assaults on Tinian and Guam claimed the services of Cassin Young until 13 August, when she returned to Eniwetok to replenish.
Between 29 August and 2 October 1944, Cassin Young guarded the carriers of Task Group 38.3 as strikes were flown from their decks to hit targets on Palau, Mindanao, and Luzon in support of the assault on the Palaus, stepping-stone to the Philippines. Only 4 days after her return from this mission to Ulithi, Cassin Young sailed on 6 October with the same force on duty in the accelerated schedule for the Philippines assault. First on the schedule were air strikes on Okinawa, Luzon, and Formosa; these led to the furious Formosa Air Battle of 10 to 13 October, during which the Japanese tried to destroy the carrier strength of the imposing TF 38. On 14 October, Reno was struck by a kamikaze, which wounded five of Cassin Young's men with machine gun fire. Cassin Young aided in shooting down several aircraft in this attack.
On 18 October 1944, TF 38 took position east of Luzon to launch strikes immobilizing enemy air fields there in preparation for the assault on Leyte 2 days later. After standing by to render support if called upon during the initial landings, Cassin Young's group began to search for the enemy forces known to be moving toward Leyte Gulf on 23 October, and next day moved in toward San Bernardino Strait, ready to launch strikes. In the most vigorous and successful air attack mounted by the Japanese during the Leyte operation, at 0938 on 24 October, an enemy bomb struck Princeton, and Cassin Young rejoined TG 38.3 for the dash northward to attack the Japanese Northern Force. This developed on 25 October into the Battle off Cape Engaño, a series of air strikes in which four Japanese carriers and a destroyer were sunk.

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I found this info in
http://www.navy.mil/navydata/navy_legacy_hr.asp?id=143

Image
USS HOEL
Oct. 25, 1944 - Destroyers USS Hoel (DD 533), USS Johnston (DD 557), and escort USS Samuel B. Roberts (DE 413) sank during a raid against enemy battleships off the island of Samur. Only 86 of Hoel's complement survived while 253 officers and crew died with their ship.

Image
USS Johnston DD557 USN Fletcher Class Destroyer 1944 Kit 1-350 Yankee Modelworks Resin Model Ship Kit

Witch color would you use, the blue or dezzel. This is a dilemma because I saw de dvd dogfighter battle of leyte and fought like the grandes. Hope you answer.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 22, 2010 2:40 pm 
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Shipcamouflage.com says MS 21 for 1944, but they're not always very precise in their listings.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 22, 2010 8:53 pm 
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hello timmy, i would not trust in this case, i already see it. and do not thing is the best option, greetings

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 22, 2010 10:23 pm 
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What camo JOHNSTON was painted on 25 October 1944 has been puzzled for a long time. C. Lee Johnson in his book "USN FLETCHER CLASS DESTROYERS IN WWII DAZZLE CAMOUFLAGE" lists JOHNSTON with being in Ms 21 on 18 March 1944 with no listing of any dazzle scheme. That isn't a final answer, since paint is paint and can be changed practically overnight. Unless a previously unknown photo surfaces, I don't think there will be an answer.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 22, 2010 10:47 pm 
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hello Rick, i think here that the blue scheme is a scheme more seen in months before oct 1944 like 1943 and so. i thank you your answer and i am always open minded to know more. greetings

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 23, 2010 5:31 am 
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It is not always the case that ALL USN ships were in Dazzle during the "experiment" period of 1944. Camo of their ships was left up to the ship's CO (or unit CO aka Squadron or Division) for the most part. Many CO's were not happy with the dazzle schemes and had their ships painted back to the Ms 21 scheme they had known since 1942 as soon as possible. By late 1944 the dazzle schemes were being ordered done away with and replaced with either Ms 21 or Ms 22. So it isn't at all unreasonable to see Ms 21 on ships during the period.

There was an a formal study made with the "frontline" units in mid-1944 to find out which schemes were the most effective. The findings basically were that the dazzle schemes were not that effective and that crews hated the dazzle schemes because they required a lot of attention to maintain. Also, when the kamikaze attacks came into wide use, the dazzle schemes were consider to have made ships a more VISIBLE target. My own personal view is that dazzle camo cost lives.

But, you can paint your model anyway you want or select a subject that is known to have worn dazzle. But, as is there is no way to know what scheme out of dozens available in the Ms 31/32/33 family, that JOHNSTON could have been painted in. The scheme worn by a sister destroyer in the same organization doesn't mean anything.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 23, 2010 12:45 pm 
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oh my god, i have two choices, i am about to recieve more ww2 destroyers info, let see what i found and i tell you. greetings

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 23, 2010 1:23 pm 
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i had to do this, in the page http://www.shipcamouflage.com/fletcher_class.htm in 1944
175 were buid
35 had ms21 in 1944 by the website.

175 100%
35 20%

by numers seems very bad for blue camoufle. lets see what you think...

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 23, 2010 7:03 pm 
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Rick E Davis sended me this interesting words.

Irving,

I don't have a good answer for your question. Many FLETCHERS that were commissioned in 1944 or returned to the West Coast for a refit during that year were painted in one of the dazzle schemes. However, there were some individual destroyers and in at least one case I know of, a whole Destroyer Squadron ... DesRon 21 (DD-445, 446, 447, 448, 449, 450, 468, plus a couple others) ... left the San Francisco Bay in January 1944 painted in dazzle. The DesRon CO didn't like the camo and had the crews paint them back into Ms 21 at Pearl Harbor. Other destroyers once given the order that they could paint out the dazzle schemes, did so as early as October-November 1944.

In looking at the DesRon that JOHNSTON was a member of ... DesRon 47

DD-534 McCORD* (DesRon Flag)

DesDiv 93
DD-530 TRATHEN
DD-531 HAZELWOOD*
DD-532 HEERMAN*
DD-533 HOEL*

DesDiv 94
DD-554 FRANKS
DD-555 HAGGARD
DD-556 HAILEY**
DD-557 JOHNSTON

The units with an "*" are known to have been in a dazzle camo scheme. HAILEY is "reported" to have been in a dazzle scheme, but no photo exists. In many cases whole Destroyer Divisions were sent back for refit together, but seldom the whole Squadron. It looks like DesDiv 93 were all painted in dazzle, except for TRATHEN ... likely at the same time. Except for the report, not verified by a photo, of HAILEY in dazzle none of DesDiv 94 were reported as being in dazzle. I have 2,500+ images of FLETCHERS during and after WWII and the only photos during the dazzle camo period I have of any of the DesDiv 93 ships ... FRANKS in Dec 1944 and HAILEY in Jan 1945 ... are both in Ms 21.

Bottom-line, I don't know for sure what scheme JOHNSTON was painted in. JOHNSTON was commissioned on 27 October 1943 and never had a refit after departing for the war zones in the Central Pacific. FRANKS and HAGGARD also, didn't have a refit before the end of the war. HAILEY left from a post shakedown refit at Puget Sound about two months after the others in December 1943 and could have been painted in dazzle.

TRATHEN had a machinery failure and returned from the war zone to Puget Sound Navy Yard in November 1943 and doesn't appear to have had a refit again until 1945. DD-531 through 534 all transferred to the South Pacific, operating from the Solomons in about March 1944. The photos I have of two of these ships in dazzle camo, likely were taken at Noumea, New Caledonia Island, a fairly major forward base ... if I have to guess, this is where they were painted in dazzle.

AS an aside, HAZELWOOD at least, retained her dazzle camo into April 1945.

Rick

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 23, 2010 7:09 pm 
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from the page http://www.shipcamouflage.com/fletcher_class.htm

i recieved an answer from Luciano Lacqua web manager of shipcamouflage.com i quote:

"Ciao
my real name is Luciano Lacqua: Secondo is a nick I chose because it's the main character of an historical novel that I'm trying to write. I have recently got a degree in italian literature and I hope to find a job as teacher, but I would as well work as a sailing instructor or (perhaps one day...) naval historian.

Rick E Davis is the most competent user that we know when it comes to US ships: I trust his words as Bible and he's very kind too, he helped me a lot sending me photos unavaiable on the web and infos when I asked him about "my" USS Killen. When you will need more detailed informations, don't hesitate to ask him. Until he does not says that they are wrong, I would consider the infos avaiable on shipcamouflage.com to be correct and, given what Rick has said, we can be sure that USS Johnston was in Ms. 21 at the time of her sinking.

If I had to choose between Ms. 21 (all blue, USS Johnston) and Ms. 31 (dazzle, USS Hoel), apart from the interest for the career of a specific ship, the main factors would be scale and my painting ability. I think that dazzle schemes are the most difficult to apply, no matter what the scale, but also the most rewarding.

- Small scale (1/350): easier to paint for all blue, the dazzle requiring a masking work that can be difficult on small surfaces

- Big scale (1/144): it's the other way around, the all blue scheme would be too monotone on big surfaces and it would be mandatory to apply some advanced techniques like pre-shadowing and selective washes. Dazzle, altough still demanding, would be a little easier to do than in small scale, but many small details could impair masking.

All considered, I would go for a 1/144 USS Johnston in her Ms. 21. Advanced painting, with pre-shadowing and so on, makes for more fun than spending hours masking. You would also be one of the first modelers to try the conversion of Revell's early war round bridge into a late war square bridge Fletcher.
Let me know what you think about it

Ciao

Luciano "

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 26, 2010 3:38 pm 
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Irving Gonzalez wrote:
i recieved an answer from Luciano Lacqua web manager of shipcamouflage.com i quote:


Unless there have been some changes I am not aware of Luciano is not the web master. I have no other input into the camouflage unfortunately.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 26, 2010 4:04 pm 
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i think the dezzel is the answer...

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 03, 2010 5:12 pm 
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This week, I have had a chance to look at a photo of JOHNSTON (DD-557) taken about 15 September 1944 (give or taken a couple of days) about six weeks before she was lost. I can't post an image of her, but JOHNSTON was in Ms 21 in mid-September 1944 and was most likely painted so when lost.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 05, 2010 2:43 am 
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well, the way i see it most of the ships in taffy 3 had camouflege, like
Image
USS Gambier Bay at the Battle off Samar
October 25, 1944


USS Heermann (DD-532) USS HEERMANN (DD 532) lays smoke off Samar Image
Battle off Samar: October 1944

USS Samuel B. Roberts (DE-413)
Image

Edited by Tracy: Removed excess history not useful to the conversation.

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1/700 IJN Shinano. (Tamiya)

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 05, 2010 11:41 am 
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Taffy three was not a all-cohesive unit but an operational one. The destroyers would not be painted in a manner that depended on what other ships in their operational group were wearing..

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