The Ship Model Forum

Hello everybody

You may have seen that I started (slowly...) the construction of two LCI, an American LCI-85 and a Canadian LCI-250.

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=375701

I’m blocking for the moment on the color of the LCI-85, I think it has a blue livery but I’m not sure.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5E25Uu8mVbg

I think it’s a blue as you can see in this picture on the LCI-84 and 87:



But the blue 5-N seems very dark to me, do you have an idea of the reference of this blue??

Many thanks in advance !!

Alain

Alain,

My response is provisional based on some unknowns. First off, what is the source of the in port image of LCI-84 and 87 and LCA's? Color images are almost always tricky to determine "true" colors. The source of the digital image is important to know. If a direct scan of an original transparency or of a print copy and how many generations from the original, impacts the colors seen. Plus, way too often whoever posts color images, may well "play with" the colors to make them "prettier". But based on the third LCI (LCI-497), painted in what looks like Ms 22, the lighter color should be 5-H, and the darker blue shade is reasonable for 5-N.

I found another image on Navsource taken at the same time of the same ships, taken a different aspect and credited to being a USCG photo ... https://www.navsource.org/archives/10/15/1015008406.jpg ... has colors quite a bit darker than of the one you posted which is also posted on Navsource ... https://www.navsource.org/archives/10/15/1015008702.jpg ... These two images illustrate how ships painted the same and having photos taken even at the same time can appear with completely different levels of "darkness".

But, based on LCI-84 and 87 being USN manned/operated (not sure about the LCA's, but I believe they are RN/RCN), the darker blue is likely 5-N. The LCA's are a question mark for me. Since they are RN (or RCN), I assume the blue is a RN color. Which one I don't know.

Rick

The series of colour photos of LCIs/LCA's etc at Weymouth in 1944 have long interested me as I have often thought that they seem to show LCI 84 & 87 in a lighter and greyer paint than 5-N. My point of reference for the tone of any blue in the images is the Weymouth lifeboat in the background. The dark blue of the hulls in the RNLI livery is very well known in the British Isles and a constant to this day:



However US paints are not my thing and I bowed the conventional wisdom that these LCIs would have been 5-N. But then during a visit to Agatha Christie’s house in Devon I came across some wall painting done by a Lt Lee of USCG LCI Flotilla 10 when they were based there. The murals depict the LCI's of the 10th in a grey not a blue. There is plenty of blue in his murals so I think Lee could have painted the LCIs a 5-N blue if he had wanted to. This is just one of many:



(A Google search “Greenway House library murals” should bring up more.)

Then checking back to the records of LCI 84 & 87 I found that they were not USN manned but USCG and indeed USCG 10.

Perhaps the USCG painted their craft their own way? We have all the USN WW2 paint instructions/measures in documents such as Ships-2. Was there a separate similar document for the USCG?

Hello

Rick and Dick, thank you very much for your contribution !

I transfer your answers to a friend who is better at understanding the subtleties of your answers !

I have found this another picture :



We have the impression that the LCI in the background is painted in a rather dark blue so maybe a 5-N what do you think?

Do you know this website and these items ??? :

https://www.scalecolors.com/product/5-n-navy-blue/

Friendly

Alain

Alain and Dick,

First off, the USCG in peacetime is a separate service, but during wartime they become part of the USN. The USCG didn't have different paints applied to the ships they operated. I have never quite understood my some USN ships were manned by USCG crews, outside of those ships that were originally USCG units. But, many amphibious and escort types (like DE's) were USCG manned during WWII.

During WWII, and specifically for the timeframe of these photos, the USN used primarily three colors to paint ships; 5-N, 5-O, and 5-H. The Pacific fleet applied Ms 21 until late in 1944, which was overall 5-N. The Atlantic fleet used either Ms 22 (along with a similar scheme sometimes called Ms 18), a graded scheme, or Ms 16 "Thayer System" using Thayer Blue 5-B (a very light blue) and White 5-U. In the Pacific, Amphibious types were many times being painted in "Greens" to blend in with islands.

Generally in 1944, new-built ships programmed to serve in the Pacific would be painted in Ms 21 when completed. New-built ships programmed to serve in the Atlantic, were painted in Ms 22. However, it has been noted that in the build-up to the Normandy landings, some units intended for assignment to the Pacific, were at the last minute assigned to the Atlantic specifically to support the landings. I have noted DE's so painted in Ms 21 instead of Ms 22. My guess is that the subject LCI's painted with 5-N (Ms 21) were such vessels. Note that the third LCI (LCI-497) seen in the photo is painted in Ms 22.

5-N freshly applied looks pretty dark. But, 5-N paint had a tendency to fade and be coated with salt coating resulting in lighter appearance. Also, photographers adjusted settings and used different filters for their shots, and film developers adjusted darkness in the developing lab, all to make the details of the subject stand out.

What I don't know and is interesting to me, is the paint scheme applied to the LCA's in the foreground. I don't know what color these RN units have been painted to.