The Ship Model Forum

To start this off, dates of repainting during first commissions:

Illustrious: 1-5/7/40 (Bermuda); 13/9/40, 20-26/9/40 (Alexandria); 6-7/12/40, 9/12/40, 14/12/40 (Alexandria); 14-15/2/41, 17-21/2/41 (Alexandria)

Illustrious arrived in the Mediterranean in overall (medium) grey. Although there are very few photographs, I'd speculate that two distinct 'Alexandria' type schemes may have been were applied after she arrived in the Med. The first shows less contrast than the scheme worn at the time of her extensive damage on 10/1/41. This would be consistent with the dates recorded above, with the first scheme applied in September 1940 and the second in December 1940. It appears from the photographs I've seen that the repainting in February 1941 followed the same pattern as the December 1940 scheme.


Indomitable: 26/5-30/5/1942 (Kilindini, Mombasa)

During the period at Mombasa, Indomitable's first Admiralty disruptive scheme was replaced with the Admiralty scheme worn during Operation 'Pedestal'.

Was her AA fit augmented at Mombasa or at Freetown, where she docked between 28/7/42 and 1/8/42? There is a FAAM photo showing Indomitable in her second Admiralty scheme (possibly taken during Pedestal) with the searchlights removed from the bow positions. Whether they 20mm were fitted in place is a little difficult to tell, but that seems a good working assumption.

Probably (but not absolutely), the extra mountings were fitted at Freetown.
Out of small interest, why do you wish to know?

I'm trying at the moment is pin down changes to the AA fit of these ships(of Indomitable in particular). Where are changes to the AA fit likely to be recorded? They are not in the Ships' logs (which give the dates of painting given above).

They are some of the most important RN warships of WW2, yet have been neglected by both historians and manufacturers of scale models.

You will need to look at the armament returns. When I was actively researching in the UK, these were listed in 'Particulars of HM Ships" A twice yearly publication. And for more than one reason they were not always accurate. But it is always the start point. Then one tries to confirm with photos. I did this with Battleships and cruisers.
It appears that only a handfull of ship's logs for the wartime period have survived. The rest (a mountain of them) were thrown out because the person responsible did not think that they were important enough to keep! The truth, believe it or not.
I believe that L Batchelor may know where the returns are located today.
Good luck, especially so, as you appear to be the first person to try this work.

Thank you for the information. I have just searched TNA catalogue online and not found any files using 'Particulars of HM Ships.' Perhaps Mr L. Batchelor could indicate where these files are hiding, if he has found them?

As for the Ships' Logs for each of the 6 fleet carriers, every month has survived for the WW2 period, with the exception of Illustrious Jan 1942 to Dec 1942 inclusive. It sounds, from what you say, that this is an unusual survival rate for logs. I have been gradually working my way through them to create a day by day record of movement (among other things).

I did locate where the 'Particulars of HM Ships' were held with help from John Roberts.
But the bombsell I can't remember precisely where!
They are either in the PRO or Naval Historical in the Admiralty Library at HMS Victory Portsmouth Naval Base.

I have not looked through them yet as they don't appear a priority and I'm purely looking at Operational things.
They look a bit like the Pink Lists to me in the sense you need to use other sources to cross-reference with them as their a bit iffy and have gaps.

Here I've scanned a page for you from the 'Particulars of HM Ships' so you can see the format:-



I'm sorry I cannot remember precisely where they are, I'm juggling with so many sources and 450 ships!
at the moment its hard to just be able to navigate through whats in the PRO, let alone other locations!

Generally Phil I would consider only delving into the Ships covers at the NMM if I wished to understand the designing and/or rebuilding or a warship.
That's their primary value not wartime A and A's, though you have opened my eyes to them containing watime data on repainting.
Can you say alittle more on this please?

I believe a good thing for you to do is to contact the archivist at Priddy's Hard, the naval weapons depot which is now the Explosion museum at Gosport.
Ask them if they still have the armament return forms there from WW2 or where they are now located.
I've not done this yet as I have family who are moving to the Portsmouth area next year so in the future.
I was going to base myself there and do all the things in the vicinity of the Hampshire area in a few years time.

Finally with the MoD and their ultimate wisdom, well foolishness someone threw most of the wartime ships logs into a skips in the 1950s as ar says.
However anything above light cruiser, generally, should have survived.
Though I see your problem only Implacable's from 1944onwards is in the PRO:-
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/searchresults.asp?SearchInit=0&txtsearchterm=Implacable&txtfirstdate=1930&txtlastdate=1945&txtrestriction=ADM53&hdnsorttype=Reference&image1.x=0&image1.y=0

Though Illustrious looks better with only 1942 missing:-
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/searchresults.asp?fldResultMarker=1&fldSearchNumber=1816&SearchInit=1

My area with WW2 RN destroyers I'm left with virtually no wartime logs!
The swines!

P.S. John's not been contactable for some, I'll write to him on both our parts as I wish to know where there are again also!

Laurence,

Thanks for the scan and the suggestions. When you remember the location of the 'Particulars', I'd be grateful for the reference.

If you re-read my post, you'll see that I'm saying ALL of the armoured fleet carrier logs have survived except for Illustrious 1942. To find them you have to search the TNA catalogue using just 'ship name', not by using 'ship name' log.

Generally, they record which way the ship is pointing and how fast it is going. In addition, they provide details of replenishment, other HM ships in company (and sometime their relative position), aircraft embarked and lost (sometimes quite detailed entries), painting of ship, personnel embarked, admonishments (flying crew seem to have been admonished more than most), damage sustained, casaulties, burials at sea, etc etc. I've not found any details of radar or AA fit changes.


However, day by day records make for slow research progress and I've only completed Indomitable and Illustrious' first commission so far.

Sorry Ian I was typing my message the same time you were yours.
Thus I then saw your post about what carrier logs survived afterwards.

I've already been going through the ADM53's for RN WW2 destroyers.
They are merely the day-to-day routines and not as helpful as one might wish for, though it appears your carrier ones record more information than my wartime destroyer ones.

When I search for them on the TNA catalogue I know most of the reference numbers off the top of my head so thats why I narrow it down like I did.
If thats what you mean?

I just capture them on camera and read them only when I get home, its much quicker that way.
I find as the numbers usually run in sequence the staff there let you do an advanced order for 30 or 50 depending if they run in full sequence or not.
This way there's a trolley waiting for you with them on when you arrive.
As my ADM53's are so incomplete I normally am limited to 30 months of ships logs per order and then order more when I get there.

I've just the minute wrote a letter to John and will post off tomorrow.

Dear Ian,

John got my letter and jogged my memory:

'Particulars of HM ships' are in the PRO under ADM239 although one (April 1942) is missing - however, he believes the Admiralty Library at Portsmouth has a full set.

I just had a quick look in their catalogue and it seems you want to look at:

ADM239/66-76 'PARTICULARS OF WAR VESSEL AND AIRCRAFT (BRITISH COMMONWEALTH OF NATIONS): HALF YEARLY RETURNS '

ADM239/46-65 'PARTICULARS OF FOREIGN MAJOR WAR VESSELS: HALF YEARLY RETURNS '. Might also be useful.

Regards
LB

Thanks for the information.

What do you make of this image of Illustrious? It is supposedly, 'returning from Taranto' at Alexandria. If so, it is after her repaint at Alexandria in September 1940. The scheme shows much less contrast than the one worn in January 1941, following the December repaint, but generally follows the same pattern.

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a166/ ... _27_14.jpg

Try this:

Do my eyes decieve me or am I seeing faint patterned camouflage?

My impression has always been Illustrious was dark grey overall for the convoy operation and subsequent Taranto raid.

However I have seen this pattern shown before and evidence that it was on her in 1940 and shown on her whilst returning to Alex from the Taranto raid.
This has been a lingering dilema which I never fully researched to resolve.

I have what looks like the same photo in my database Ian
(it's full of wartime goodies in there! )
Here you are then perhaps this makes it clearer for you:



I've never gone through it page by page but does the Poolman book on Illustrious say anything about her early camouflage scheme?

Just got the AotS book on HMS Victorious, and I have a question to all the fans of this class (forgive me for not being one... )...
The hull lines that come represented are for which time period ??? Are they any good to be of use, say, in building a early/late war Illustrious class CV ???

Thanks...

.

.... That's my same question... Thanks too!

Answer is in main forum

_________________
God created Arrakis to train the faithful.

Hi
Am looking for any material to my new build Hms Illustrious 1942-43....please any sites I can go to ?
Please help desperately required
Best regards from the little island of Malta

_________________
Louis Carabott.
The Society for Scale Modellers Malta

Try this one for general information: http://www.naval-history.net . If you are looking for photos, you might want to try the Imperial War Museum's photo collection: http://www.iwmcollection.org.uk.
http://www.maritimequest.com also has a good selection of pictures. There is also some reference material to be found at wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org .


HTH

Rob

Hi,
What is the best way to depict the cranes on HMS Victorious in 1/700?
I have the GMM set 700-06 British warship. I also have the GMM British aircraft carrier set.
The AOTS book shows a heavy crane and light crane. Which is which on the GMM 700-06 set?
I'm working on the ship in a 1945 time frame.
Thanks
Bill Inglee

Billi,

Two 7-ton cranes were fitted when the ship was completed, and were carried until her 1950-1958 reconstruction. After that, the port crane had been removed, and the starboard one replaced with the 11¼ one shown in the AOTS book. Neither is provided on GMM's set 700-6; although the crane base for REPULSE/BELFAST or RODNEY is a close match, the booms provided for either of these ships are incorrect. I would suggest using the booms from GMM set 700-16 with crane bases from 700-6. Although 700-16 is much older and less finely etched, the booms are of the correct proportions.

Tim

Thanks. I have the other 700-series GMM set too. As you say, it isn't as finely etched. Guess I'll use it.
Bill