Calling all Fletcher-class (DD-445) fans

Destroyers and Destroyer Escorts of all nations and eras.
DD, DDE, DE, FF, FFG, and DDR.

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Jimmy Conway
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Post by Jimmy Conway »

Sleepwalker wrote:I'm not in rush with this plate. I will not attach it until I'll have clear evidence that it was installed on USS Heermann. I can always add it later. BTW. Different question. Some Fletchers had single, some double depth charges stands on the boards. I'v looking how it was with USS Heermann, but unfortunately best photo showing her side was made during action off Samar, and stern part is obscured by the smoke. Can anyone help me with this?
I was searching my resources (AOTS The Sullivans, Floating Plan Book, Warship Perspectives) to solve this, but without definitive result.
Regards.
Ok Sleepwalker, you are giving us some time to do researchs....... about the depth charges rack, let's do some research too! I have no photo showing both evidence, and it is the best way to feature such a nice class of ships. But specifically, what period, what year, you are featuring your "Heermann"? Let us know!
Nice regards: Jimmy
Last edited by Jimmy Conway on Tue Jul 24, 2007 11:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
Rick E Davis

Post by Rick E Davis »

Sleepwalker,

I'm a little unclear about which "Depth Charge Racks" on Fletcher's you are seeking information on? There were two 600lb D/C racks on the fantail for dropping off the stern. Look at this photo over at Navsource of the Heerman to see what I mean ... http://www.navsource.org/archives/05/0553206.jpg ... NOTE!!! No hotlinking allowed - just copy and paste into your browser. This is a censor altered photo (no Mk-37!!) but the D/C layout is clear. The capacity of these were increased as the war progressed by extending the racks and adding a separate shorter storage rack at an angle to the drop racks (see above photo). Also, the Navy adapted newer D/C's towards the end of the war which caused a few modifications. The six K-guns (3 to each side) by the aft deckhouse on the main deck on Fletcher's, had originally a post storage scheme, which the Heerman never had. Then a storage rack that only carried like 5 300lb D/C's was fitted and it appears that the Heerman was completed with these. Many, I'm not sure all, Fletchers got a double size storage 300lb D/C racks installed in 1944-45 refits. The Heerman had a refit in late Nov 44 into mid Jan 45, and I can not easily tell if she got these double racks at that time (or earlier when she was updated to 10-40mm guns?) from the photos at Navsource. There is a photo at DestroyerHistory ... http://www.destroyerhistory.org/fletche ... nn_01.html ... that I think shows her with the double racks, it is a poor aspect to look for it ... but there is no date on the photo. But, I wouldn't be surprised that the Heerman had the drop racks. It depends on when you which to model the Heerman.
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ArizonaBB39
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Post by ArizonaBB39 »

Rick,

I believe he means the Depth Charge Thrower Racks P/S beside the aft deckhouse.
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Jimmy Conway
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Post by Jimmy Conway »

Some link to USS Trathen. The drawings depicts some ramming bow!!!
But just plans or the ship were build or reffited with the"plate"?

http://www.ussstoddard.org/drawings.htm
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Sleepwalker
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Post by Sleepwalker »

Thanks for all replies. My USS Heerman model will be showing her on October 1944 during the Samar Battle. Camouflage 32/24D. Sorry to be not precise enough - I had in mind depth charge storage racks on the sides.
God created Arrakis to train the faithful.
Rick E Davis

Post by Rick E Davis »

I did a little more hunting for Heermann photos and I found a good view from the late 1944-Jan 45 refit. At that point in time the Heermann had the double storage racks for the K-guns. I have not found a clear view of her K-guns during the Leyte Gulf period, basically just before the yard period. So, I'm unsure when the Heermann went from the single to double racks.
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Sleepwalker
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Post by Sleepwalker »

If these photos are just before refit, I think they will be suitable. USS Heermann was severy damaged during the battle, so I don't belive that there was one more upgrade at this time period.
God created Arrakis to train the faithful.
Rick E Davis

Post by Rick E Davis »

It has been awhile since any posts to this subject thread. Anyway, I have something new to pass on.

If anyone is interested in knowing the AA armament timeline for the Fletcher class destroyers during WWII, there are a couple of new graphs (actually a revised one and a new one) at the Destroyer History Foundation website ... http://www.destroyerhistory.org/fletche ... ament.html ... that may be of interest. Dave McComb has formatted information I have gathered over the years and put it into a graphical format that in one place shows an interesting story. It isn't complete, there need to be footnotes added for the second chart to identify what each color means. This is kind of crude in breaking the information down to the nearest month and not to specific dates. But, I think it serves the objective of illustrating the variety of AA configurations for this class, at least to the number of 40-mm guns carried. There was no easy way to document all the 20-mm configurations ... especially for the early units, when the authorized and un-authorized numbers of 20-mm guns were changing every month from November 1942 through mid-1943.
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ArizonaBB39
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Post by ArizonaBB39 »

Hey all, some pics, finally. Sorry about the quality though, they are just some quick snapshots.

"Ship yard" Ships, from bottom to top: Atlanta class CL USS Flint, Sumner class DD USS Shea, Fletcher class DD USS Kimberly, Fletcher class DD USS Spence, a liberty ship, and two LCTs. The destroyers will not be in the finished diorama :thumbs_up_1:
"Ship yard" (same as above)
USS Spence
USS Spence. Spence is being built using parts from Tamiya and Trumpeter kits along with GMM PE and L'arsenal upgrades. Starboard side hull camouflage on Spence isn't completed yet, but I'm almost there! Kimberly will be built basically OOB except with GMM PE and I'll probably use L'arsenal 40mm and 20mm.
DrewH
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Post by DrewH »

First, Thanks Tony Bunch for recomending this site - It's great :woo_hoo:

After reading all you guys have posted in this thread, I still have a question. I am building my first ship kit. 1/350 Sullivans Destroyer in early configuration - 1943 - from the Trumpeter kit. (I'm an airplane guy - be gentile :lol_1: )

I think I have the gist of the colors - measure 12. So if I read everything right, that would be 5-N navy blue for all vertical surfaces, 20-b deck blue for horizontal surfaces and haze gray for the turret tops and torpedo tubes.

I am using GMM fletcher etch set and gun turrets and sets from L'arsenal.

I have not found if the early 5" guns had the protective bags or not. I have found some other DD's that did, but not this one.

TIA - Drew
Take this plastic and model it!
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ArizonaBB39
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Post by ArizonaBB39 »

Drew,

First off, welcome aboard!

Now to the Sullivans..

If you are building the kit as the Sullivans she never wore Ms12 camouflage, only Ms21 and Ms22.

For the 1943 time frame you are trying to depict the correct scheme would be Measure 21 Camouflage, as the link says: Navy Blue 5N all vertical surfaces, with horizontals Deck Blue 20B. (from http://www.shipcamouflage.com save this site for future reference)

Looking at pictures from navsource (http://www.navsource.org again save this site for future reference) the Sullivans did have blast bags on the guns (what you call protective coverings). Here is navsource's Sullivans page:

DD-537 USS THE SULLIVANS

I hope this helps, and if you have any other questions feel free to ask :thumbs_up_1:

Oh, and by the way, make sure to post pics!
DrewH
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Post by DrewH »

Abram - Thank you so much. I have alot of resources to sniff out I know.
I see fast fingers and quick post got me again - I did mean measure 21.

Blast bags - got it. :eyebrows: Ship camoflage - saved.

Thanks again. And I will post pics when I get to them. As it stands the lower hull is together and sanded, the main deck is on. I am starting smaller sub-assemblies and moving to the super structure.
Take this plastic and model it!
Rick E Davis

Post by Rick E Davis »

Mike Glasglow asked back in late June about the use of the electronic sight on the twin 20mm guns at the end of the war. I found a photo of the sight used on the twin 20mm gun at the time and posted it. While I was going through my photos today looking for something else, I found the electronic sight being used on a single 20mm on the raised platform in front of the bridge ... in July 1943 on the USS Brown (DD-546). Amazing how fresh, clean, and clutter-free a brand-new ship is. I had spotted the sight being used on some other ships, but this view is really sharp and clear.


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ArizonaBB39
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Post by ArizonaBB39 »

Rick, beautiful picture!! Thanks for sharing! :thumbs_up_1:
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Mike Glasgow
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Post by Mike Glasgow »

Thanks for another great photo and reconfirming the electronic sights for the 20mm.
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DanCinSD
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Post by DanCinSD »

Does anyone have other views of these 20mm tubs that are forward of the bridge and also a close picture of a 20mm mounted on top of the pilot house??
Dan
Field Artillery, King of Battle
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Rick E Davis

Post by Rick E Davis »

Dan,

Go up to page 11 on this thread and see the photo I posted some time ago of the Halford with the subject 20-mm guns and associated tubs. This shows a typical installation for the early "round-bridge" ships in this class. If you are interested in the revised "open-square-bridge" ships, I will need to do some hunting to find a good photo. The square-bridge ships didn't have the 20-mm gun mounted atop the pilothouse because of the lowered Mk 37 director and their elevated tub was a different design. Let me know if this photo answers your questions. Also, I MAY be able to make a copy of the elevated centerline tub drawing that is available on the Bath Iron Works Fletcher class Engineering Drawings DVD (available from the Destroyer History Foundation website), if you need more detail like dimensions.

Edited by Tracy
direct link to post mentioned above
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DanCinSD
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Post by DanCinSD »

Hi Rick,
Thank you for the que to the pictures.... Yes, they are what I was looking for... After finishing my USS LaVallette I see quite a few mistakes I made in her, but being my fist ship model in about 30 years I was overall happy with the way she turned out.....
Now I am doing a little research FIRST and then start construction!! I want to build an early Fletcher with some "easier" scratchbilding to improve my skills and my ships accuracy. I have been reading the "calling all ships" and learning much. Still a little confused and need to re-read many parts to get it right in my mind!!
Thanks to all who contribute!
Dan
Field Artillery, King of Battle
Please check out the Secret Society of Model Builders on facebook.
Rick E Davis

Post by Rick E Davis »

A quick posting on the evolution of the 20-mm gun locations on the main deck amidships on the Fletcher class destroyers.

This sketch isn't an exhaustive study of all the "exact" locations on the main deck amidships that 20-mm guns were mounted. I have mentioned how the number mounted and locations for these guns were moved around as production progressed and various builders added their own "styles".

A: The location of the two per side 20-mm guns that the first Bath Iron Works and Federal SB ships (DD445-451 at least) were delivered with. A weird side note, the early built Bethlehem SB - SF destroyers (I think all of DD526-528), among the first square bridge Fletchers, used this same location. Which by that time was NOT the authorized location. All but the Ammen (DD527) had the locations moved forward when they were updated. The Ammen however retained this location, it appears until the end of the war.

B: The location of the single 20-mm gun per side when the number of 20-mm guns was reduced to four from six (retaining the two on 01 deck before the bridge) when the fantail twin 40-mm mount was installed. Note that the aft most gun was removed.

C: In response to the demand for more 20-mm guns, the amidships main deck 20-mm guns were again brought back to two per side, but instead of mounting the 20-mm back where it had been located, it was installed ahead of the one that remained. From the BIW drawings the aft most 20-mm gun was mounted a little more forward that before on NEW construction ships. I suspect that the ships that had their 20-mm guns reduced in number, and then had it added back, didn't move the remaining gun and simply added the additional gun before it.

D and E: These two drawings show the two most common ways that 20-mm guns were installed once the admidships twin 40-mm mounts were installed. D shows the style/method used by many builders and simply continued the method already being used. Some yards, not necessarily builders, built or modified many ships to the method seen in E, where the bulwark was not curved inwards, but was butted up to the clipping rooms and blended in to it.

Don't get too excited about the EXACT locations where the 20-mm guns were mounted to the deck. It seems that there were some variations on where they were installed. These simple drawings are based on the Bath Iron Works Engineering Drawings and other yards could be slightly different.

Also, I included the original arbor post storage method and K-gun locations used on the DD449-451 (at least). Further down is shown a K-gun with the roller rack storsge method. I didn't try to show the variations in how these were done.

Also, I have not included the six ships that either were equipped with the cataplut or were intended to be, because they had at least to different layouts for their 20-mm guns. Also, I didn't show the twin 20-mm installation seen in 1945.

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Sleepwalker
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Post by Sleepwalker »

I'm not sure if it was a rule, but from the photos I concluded that D design was used on square bridge Fletchers, and E design was used on round bridge Fletchers.
God created Arrakis to train the faithful.
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