The Ship Model Forum

I know a number of the Jutland wrecks were dynamited and removed for their scrap value in the 1920s and 1930s in contradiction to their ownership and status as war graves, but does anyone have an accurate census of the ships sunk 31 May-1 June, 1916? Are any reasonably intact or at least in about the condition they were in when they went to the sea floor?

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If an unfriendly power had attempted to impose on America the mediocre educational performance that exists today, we might well have viewed it as an act of war.

-- "A Nation at Risk" (1983)

From what I can recall Queen Mary, Black Prince Indefatigable and Invincible are pretty much untouched. There was some footage of Queen Mary shown on TV a year or two ago and as you may expect the wreck is in very poor condition.

A lot of these sites are dangerous in that there are large quantities of loose ammunition on the seabead in spite of the magazien explosions.

Maybe someone else can add more, but I think there was some fairly major work done on the wreck of Lutzow.

Cheers,

Rob

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IPMS Fine Waterline Special Interest Group

Indefatigable is the one were there isn't much less than a pile of metal, due to commerical salvage during the 50's. The British wrecks themselves were not protected until the mid-80's!

Lutzow is fairly complete, but lies upside down on the sea floor.

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Ships on the Slipway
HMS Victorious R38
USS Pinckney DDG-91
SAS Drakensberg A-301
On the drawing board
HMS Dumbarton Castle P265
HMS Albion L14
VT Sergey Osipov

I would actually suggest that there are large amounts of loose ammunition on the sea floor BECAUSE of the explosions; in watching footage of Arizona's magazine explosion I was struck by how many flashes there were immediately following the major blast; I suspect that there were many shells ejected overboard that ignited immediately afterwards; it's very possible that a magazine detonation would not consume the entire cache of shells, and thus many would be flung or dropped overboard in the immediate aftermath depending on the circumstances.

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Tracy White -Researcher@Large

"Let the evidence guide the research. Do not have a preconceived agenda which will only distort the result."
-Barbara Tuchman

Have they ever found the wreck of the poor old Wiesbaden? If nothing else, Wiesbaden should be remembered for fighting to the last and taking massive punishment before going down. With all the major hits on her, why did she not blow up I wonder?

Bob B.

That is the point I was making, albeit with some appalling typing

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IPMS Fine Waterline Special Interest Group

Should even Lützow be considered a war grave? The ship did not explode. She (or rather he in German) foundered rather slowly and was abandoned by her crew before being given the coup de grâce by a Torpedoboot.

It would be neat if this last-generation German battlecruiser could be salvaged and rebuilt to its former glory as a museum of the Battle of Skagerrak/Jutland …

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Jean-Paul Binot

Germany was offered the Yavuz Sultan Salim ex-Goeben by Turkey in 1971 but this offer was rejected. and a piece of naval History went the way of many others.
Dave Wooley

HMS Caroline Not a Jutland wreck but the last surviving warship from that epic battle. Perhaps in the future this superb cruiser will be re-fitted to her original appearance. For now Caroline like Victory remains in service with the Royal Navy.

Lützow still has around 110 of her crew inside her hull. I think they should be left in peace.

Jorit

PS: A good source on these and other wrecks is this site:

http://www.bobhenneman.info/DiveHome.htm

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While I am not in favor of salvage or desecration of war graves, I do believe something tangible should be saved from as many ships as possible to represent a perpetual memorial to the history of all those who lost their lives in combat at sea. In a very short while the sea will reclaim the steel and iron and wood of these wrecks, leaving little but disturbed sand and a few less corrodible pieces of metal and a few teeth to remind us of an ocean filled with determined men and grey steel.

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If an unfriendly power had attempted to impose on America the mediocre educational performance that exists today, we might well have viewed it as an act of war.

-- "A Nation at Risk" (1983)

92 years has passed since Jutland. I think we should preserve the ships but can we lift such titans off the bed?

How long will Royal Oak last under Scapa? It's cold and such so I imagined that would act as something of a preservative?

I'd like to think of these ships being preserved as something to allow the horrors of Naval warfare to sink in with the modern generation. At the same time, it allows us to show people something that represented the glorious Royal Navy of WWI & WWII. The idea of some of these ships being rusted away kinda hurts to think about.

I was looking to things like the right gun of "P" turret of Queen Mary, or a hunk of Warrior

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If an unfriendly power had attempted to impose on America the mediocre educational performance that exists today, we might well have viewed it as an act of war.

-- "A Nation at Risk" (1983)

Indeed one of the Lutzows Turrets is seperated from the main wreck, on the sea floor, that would be a prime piece of that ship to recover.

If you wanted to lift one of these ships, Royal Oak would be the best bet I would have thought. The problem is that these are graves of dead people and you would call into question the protection of the wrecks you intend to leave untouched if you allow companies/people to start lifting part or whole of wrecks for Museums.

Another WW1 wreck I think could be lifted is the Brittanic-if anything because she is Titanics sister and it would be cheaper to lift her lying in the Med (almost) complete than some of the hair-brained expensive schemes involved in preserving chunks of the Titanic!

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Ships on the Slipway
HMS Victorious R38
USS Pinckney DDG-91
SAS Drakensberg A-301
On the drawing board
HMS Dumbarton Castle P265
HMS Albion L14
VT Sergey Osipov

I will say the same as I did when people proposed lifting and preserving Arizona....

At best you could only stave off the inevitable by a few generations. Do we honor those that died by memorializing them in a tomb subject to budget cuts and shifting interest?

Ashes to ashes, dust to dust, it is the nature of such things. The best we can do for them is to work to honestly tell their story and preserve the facts... I would rather the money go towards modern recreations than disturbing a grave site only to stave off decay by a generation or two. Think of the power we have with immersive environments today... can you imagine the impression we could have on youth if there was a battle simulator that had a bridge of one ship, the deck of another, and you could feel the cool salt air on your face... That would convey so much more than just a rusty hunk of metal.

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Tracy White -Researcher@Large

"Let the evidence guide the research. Do not have a preconceived agenda which will only distort the result."
-Barbara Tuchman

Seems such a shame to let them waste away when they are such important parts of history. Look at the butchery of the surviving ships from WWII. All we have is Belfast, Caroline & Victory. A Type 82 as well I think. Are any of our current carriers going to be preserved?

Call me selfish but I'd rather raise Royal Oak and respectfully remove the remains of her crew than see her waste away into little bits of metal on the sea floor.

I mean there are other ships that were scuttled and such as well. I know some heavy Japanese CA's were scuttled after the war for example in the Malacca Strait such as Myōkō. Would it be wrong to salvage her (apart from political issues)?

THey're going to waste away at some point... at some point people won't care enough to keep them preserved. I think that would be a greater shame than just letting them rest. I recognize that's just an opinion though.

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Tracy White -Researcher@Large

"Let the evidence guide the research. Do not have a preconceived agenda which will only distort the result."
-Barbara Tuchman

I think they should be buried in some kind odf saline neutral resin until we have the brains to recover them.

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If an unfriendly power had attempted to impose on America the mediocre educational performance that exists today, we might well have viewed it as an act of war.

-- "A Nation at Risk" (1983)

I fully agree with Tracy - while I'm all for preserving ships that are there, those who gave the ultimate sacrifice deserve to be left alone.

A museum ship is a fine thing, but they don't last for eternity - look at the original Golden Hind. It was preserved as a museum ship for quite some time, but then slowly rotted away.

Jorit

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To be fair, they never put much effort into preserving the Golden Hind.