The Ship Model Forum

What is the proper color for the 20mm, Twin 40mm, and Quad 40mm guns? I ask because while I have presumed it was the hull color (for example, MS-21, guns would be 5N), in the Trumpeter Hornet, the color of the 20mm is listed as steel. As I am in the middle of a post 43 Enterprise (MS-21), it would be helpful to know the right gun colors. BTW, the kit is the BWN. It certainly is The Big E - only the E stands for Evergreen Plastic. Lots of rebuilding, correcting, adding.
Winks

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Any storm in a port.

Winks, the 20mm's themselves would be gunmetal or parkerized color, as would their ammo drums. Their shields and mounts would be camouflage color. The larger 1.1"/75cal. or 40mm mounts were generally painted to match the surrounding camouflage color of the ship, but certain mechanisms on the larger guns might be gunmetal, or other color, such as rubber boots, recoil springs, sights and such.

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Mike

While we're on the subject of dimensions, I recall reading (a LONG time ago) in Siverstone's US Warships of WW II, the statement that the ENTERPRISE's flight deck was widened to 114'3" during her 1943 overhaul. I've never seen anything else on that subject, one way or the other. However, I have absolutely no reason to believe that the flight deck was ever widened. BUT, in September-October, 1942, when she was undergoing repairs to her damage incurred at Eastern Solomons, she was equipped with 4 x 40MM quads. Since the #3 mount couldn't fit on top of the aft clipping room, where the former #3 1.1" had been, it was mounted at flight deck level. The #4 40MM quad was mounted in a starboard-side sponson at gallery deck level, roughly abeam the aft end of #2 elevator. This sponson, I believe, is what increased the OVERALL WIDTH (not beam, not flight deck width) to 114'3". If you measure this feature off on any plans dated after 10/42, I believe you'll be able to confirm my thinking on this. (At least I hope so!)

Rich, you are correct, Silverstone had the right figure, but wrong date, and he drew the wrong conclusion. It is often similarly stated that Hornet, always quoted at 114'0" wide, had a wider deck. She did not (except for the 12 feet wider bow at the forward ramp- an additional possible confusion). I think I may have posted this somewhere, but the #4 gun tub added to the starboard aft gallery in Sept/Oct42 for the 40mm installation did indeed extend the the OA width, when measured from the centerline of the ship. The figure I have for Enterprise is 114'5", and Hornet, which also had this tub, is quoted at 114'0" max width. Enterprise's initial 40mm quad installation mimicked Hornet's 1.1"quad original layout. This starboard gallery deck tub actually has a fold up outer edge that reduces the width back to 109 feet in order for the ships to clear the Panama Canal limit of 110 feet. (The outer section of splinter shield is removed first). One of Larry Sowinski's books, Action in the Pacific, has a starboard quarter shot of CV-6 going through the Panama Canal locks in 1945. Close inspection reveals that the outer section of this 40 mm gun tub is folded up. The Floating Drydock's 1/192 scale plan of Enterprise in 1944 shows the line on the outer section of the tub that was the foldup part.

Note the folded up section on #4 40mm tub, and how it is as far out as the side extension alongside the island, but would be wider if folded down to normal position.

Mike

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Mike

Interesting OFFICIAL confirmation that my analysis was right on the length figure. ONI-222 dated 8/4/43, BEFORE Enterprise had her Bremerton refit. The rounded off length figure of 825 ft appears:
http://lcoat.tripod.com/Enterprise.JPG

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Mike

Rich,
Here is one more that shows the folded up 5 ft. outer section of the #4 40MM tub.

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Mike

Neat photo, Mike. Any idea when and where it was taken?

Rich, I believe it was Pier 26, New York, her first postwar stop on the US mainland after departing Pearl Harbor for the last time. From Pearl, she transited the Panama Canal and proceeded directly to NYC. That is why she has everything all tucked up. She transported many sailors home from Pearl for discharge, and they are disembarking with their seabags.

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Mike

A couple of interesting CV-6 photos recently showed up on Navsource. These are photos 020669a and 020669b. They show ENTERPRISE being towed up the East River to the Brooklyn Navy Yard in the early summer of 1956 on her next to last voyage.

What would be the proper colors for the forklifts, aircraft tractors, bomb cradles and torpedo carts on Enterprise in 43 and 44?
Thanks

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Any storm in a port.

While I don't have any documentation to back this up, I'd say go with something like Deck Gray 20-G. What few color photos I've seen of such equipment of that era show them being gray. For ENTERPRISE in 1945, when she operated Night Air Group 90, the Moto-Tugs and crane ("Tillie") were painted yellow, probably Insignia Yellow. The machines were painted after they came on board ship; the yellow was used as it gave better visibility at night.

I feel like an ass for asking this question, as I know I've seen it asked and answered a dozen times...

What does the 1/700 Tamiya kit most closely represent? I have two of them, plus a ton of spares in the parts boxes and the dedicated WEM photoetch. From reading this thread, I'll need a Hornet to build anything, anyway...

Thanks in advance...

Tough question. The hull and bridge are 1942 and earlier. The AA armament is a mix. Around the bridge are the 1.1's, the 20MM around the flightdeck are roughly the mid '42 arrangement, but the 40MM twins around the forward and after flightdeck are the late '43 through early '45 fit. The additional 40MM quads (aside from those around the island) are missing.

Problems: For late-war, the hull bulges are missing, the bridge is unmodified, the AA directors are not MK-37's, the AA is incomplete, and the electronics (radar, etc.) are mostly missing. For '42, there are the 40MM twins around the flightdeck which shouldn't be there, the #2 1.1 is wrongly positioned, the #3 1.1 is correctly positioned but there is a twin 40MM where the quad 40MM that replaced it was repositioned, and there are too few "outriggers", among other things. (The bridge config is a mix of Aug '42 and earlier, and Santa Cruz.) For all periods, the kit is much closer to 1/720 than 1/700, and the island is way too narrow making the AA directors way underscale, even accounting for the underscale of the kit. For today's standard, the kit is also under detailed.

Anything accurate will take work.

I broke down and bought a Hornet based on this thread's earlier recommendations without knowing what the heck I'd need from it. I was hoping that somebody had put together an "Enterprise for dummies" post, thinking I might be spoon-fed the info on which parts to use. Based on my limited research, I'm thinking I'll build her right around the Midway era, as it seems the Enterprise kit, at least, has many parts configured as such.

I love the ship, but my scratchbuilding skills are nil, unfortunately. My wife capitulated and allowed me to have framed black and white photos, as well as a cut-away poster, of the Big E in our den. I just need a halfway decent model to back them up!

I'm loathe to be such a pain, but I appreciate any help and/or advice!

Many thanks.

I've kind of posted this in the past, and I should probably take some pictures, but here is how I did it. I purchased a Hornet, Enterprise and Eduard photoetch, a well as some of Hasegawa's early USN warplane sets.

With this I was able to make a close replica of the Big E at Santa Cruz. You want to use the Enterprise hull, with the Hornet gallery decks. The Enterprise kit has the correct two gun stern 20 mm gun tubs, and what I did was cut the catwalks from both kits and spliced them together to delete the twin 40 mm gun tubs. Although not perfect, this appears more correct than the late war gun galleries.

Tamiya did not get the Hornet flight deck correct, It has the wrong shape at the bow so either flight deck could be used. I used the Enterprise kit island as it has the original armored pilot house and Mk 33 gun directors. I added the original MK 4 radars ot the MK 33's as this is correct after the refit following the Battle of Eastern Solomons. I deleted the small bridge wing located below the Navigation bridge and the boat crane outboard the island. You need to add the expanded gun tub for the bow 1.1" mount (I screwed up here and used the oval gun tub for the two single 20mm mounts) Enterpise had the 4 40mm quads added for Santa Cruz, including the starboard deck edge mount, so this is correct in the kit. Also, pictures show she had gone to the smaller single search light platforms on the stack by this time. Use the mast and foretop from the Enterprise kit with the Eduard CXAM/SK antenna. The deck markings were simple fine dashed lines on the 250N stained deck. Fill the flight deck with Wildcats, Avengers and Dauntlesses and she'll look ready to duke it out with the Shokaku.

You can also mix and math the kits o make a 1944 Big E as well, but you will need to scratchbuild the hull blisters, use the Hornet island with the Enterprise mast and definately use the Eduard photetch. You will need GMM 1/700 aircaft carrier decal set. In some ways, this is actually the easier conversion.

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Mike Pajewski

rtheriaque wrote:

]

Rob, Here is what I did to convert Tamiya's Enterprise and Hornet kits into a "Midway" Enterprise. Using the instruction sheets from both kits we will pick out the parts needed. Our main reference will be the Enterprise instructions. Use Enterprise parts unless noted.

E-= Enterprise part
H-= Hornet part

Section #1
Build per instructions.

Drill out mounting holes in part A33 for H-B13 (Hornet illustration section#3)
If you want to add a forward hangar deck use .040 sheet plastic. Make and install hangar deck before
installing parts #A34 and A35.

Section #2
Delete Enterprise parts # B2, B3,B20. (replaced by H-B13)

Replace E-B6 with H-B18.

Modify parts B12 and B11. See where the Number B11 has a line to part #B11? Cut that little locating
nub off of both B11 and B12. Those nubs make it hard for the flihgt deck to lay flat. Before you cut
them off be sure to check how the galleries are suposed to fit.

Check references for loction of ship's boats.

Section #3

Use Hornt flight deck and H-B6, H-B3, H-B16, H-B15(relocate 20mm tub to rear of part B-15, it should
mirror image part H-B16)

Modify part E-B8 (remove the two forward 20mm tubs from the catwalk)

Modify part E-A42. (remove the large 40mm mount portion (this is the one just in front of the
three 20mm mounts)

Section #4

Modify part B38 (cut off the tube from underneath it)

Use part H-B12 from Hornet Illustration section twin its place. This needs to be shimmed up or
by plastic strip. It should come up to the bottom of B38.

I think that the search light platform B38 sits up to high on the stack. If you chose not to
lower it (I didn't) you should mount the search lights before you add A-9 to the top of the
stack.

I also think that the search lights sit to far back on B38. I cut 3/16" out of the part just in
front of the search light position. I then put it in the locating slot and then added the
other pieces to move the lights forward.

Replace E-B46 with H-B33

Section #5

Replace guns.

Anchor goes on the port side only.

HTH

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Gordon


"Then there was one patched-up carrier...."
Vice Admiral Thomas A. Kinkaid

Anyone know what the color of floater nets was? I know the baskets are the local ship color, but I am wondering about the floater net themselves (the L'Arsenal 1/350 set has floater net inserts). Thanks
Kevin

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Any storm in a port.

Gordon,

That post is incredibly valuable- if this were an automotive forum I'd say "Add it to the FAQ!"

I'll take pictures as I work through my build for illustrations- it'll be Gordon's article on "How to make an Enterprise out of the Tamiya Entornet." Or is it Hornoprise?

Okay, more questions...

Virtually every reference I see lists the Enterprise as wearing Measure 21 around the time of Midway. Looking closely at some of these pictures, however...

http://www.navsource.org/archives/02/020645.jpg

http://www.navsource.org/archives/02/020622.jpg

The Ship Camouflage Database lists Measure 21. Captions on pictures showing that same color change at the hangar deck in the Yorktown Class Warship Pictorial (or is it Perpsectives?) call it out as Measure 21. That sure looks like a transition to something lighter at the hangar deck level.

I see a similar transition on Gordon's model- is that a 5-N on the hull to a 5-S at the hangar? Thus, not pure Measure 21?

Actually, it's Ms 11, but using Navy Blue 5-N rather than Sea Blue 5-S. It appears that the Sea Blue faded rather readily, and so Navy Blue was ordered to be used in its place. (You can find more on this subject by searching for a "What color were the battleships at Pearl Harbor" thread on just about any modeling board. Just be prepared to view a flame war when you do.) As I recall, Tracy White was the one who found documentation on the substitution of 5-N for 5-S. For a good photo of what ENTERPRISE looked like at Midway, this photo, probably taken in April, 1942, is my favorite:

http://www.cv6.org/noumea/default.asp?u ... %28Year%29

There are also several photos taken just prior to he sortie for the Doolittle raid that appear in Dr. Steve Ewing's book. While almost always captioned as May, 1942, the presence of CALIFORNIA abaft the Big E says that the photos could not have been taken later than 9 April, when BB-44 was moved to drydock. ANd CV-6 sailed for the Doolittle raid on 8 April.