Calling all Fletcher-class (DD-445) fans

[eclarson]

Greetings.

I am a brand new member of this excellent forum and have spent the past couple hours just going through this thread.

I'm an experienced aircraft modeler trying to do justice to a rather ambitious ship project. My father, who died when I was 10, served as a radioman on the USS Rowe (DD 564) at the end of WWII. I had long wanted to build a model of his ship which I only knew to be a Fletcher-class destroyer. When Tamiya released their 1/350 Fletcher, I immediately obtained one with intention of building it as the Rowe. Unfortunately, at that time, I thought all Fletcher DDs looked the same and all ships were painted grey! Well, you can stop laughing now and know that I have long ago learned the errors of my ways.

I am using the old Tom's Modelworks Square Bridge Conversion set along with a small fortune in GMM, L'Arsenal, and WEM aftermarket items to build as accurate a representation of the Rowe as I can given the rather limited photos available of the ship at that time. One of the things I agonized over was the paint scheme. I want my model to appear as the ship would have appeared during the time my dad was aboard (1945). I have a photo of the Rowe, taken shortly after commissioning, showing her in what looks to be a Measure 31 multi-color scheme, but correspondence with another vet who served aboard her at about the same time as Dad led me to believe that she was later painted blue (Measure 21).

A year or so ago, I found a photo of the Rowe taken late in the war, which while a bit blurry, clearly showed she was painted in Measure 21 at that time. Whew! I was relieved as I sure didn't want to tackle that splinter scheme. By the way, I am using WEM paints.

Now, I do have a question that I hope those here will help me with. I understand that by definition, Measure 21 states that horizontal surfaces are painted 20-B Deck Blue and vertical surfaces are 5-N Navy Blue. Do "horizontal surfaces" include the main turret tops? I have scrutinzed many photos of Measure 21 ships, including those in this thread, and I just can not tell if the turret tops are different from the sides in those black & white photos. It is obvious that the turret tops are dark on ships painted with lighter colors but the contrast is so close between the two dark blues as to make the decks and the superstructure all look the same.

Thank you for bearing with my lengthy post and for any information you could provide.

Cheers,
Eric

[Rick E Davis]

Erik,

Well good luck with your build, you seem to have most of what you need to do the job. Unfortunately I have no WWII images of ROWE, there is a whole group of destroyers around ROWE that have very few WWII photos of them at NARA. I don't know why.

To answer your question about the tops of gun mounts in Ms 21. I think, that many times the crew painted the whole mount the same 5-N color. This wasn't true for ships painted in Ms 22. Here is a late war, August 1945, view I have of a sister to ROWE and actually was one of her DesDiv 113 mates ... WATTS (DD-567). I can not tell if they painted the roof of WATTS with 20-B or 5-N, it does appear to be a "flat" paint compared to the sides. If they did paint it with 20-B, you can tell where the divide was between the top and sides.

A side note: You can tell on WATTS where they painted over the dazzle scheme she had as the Ms 21 5-N is getting worn off.

[eclarson]

Thank you, Rick. That is a fantastic photo! Sounds like the choice is up to me. One interesting thing I noticed in those two photos is what appears to be a light border around the color separation on the turret tops. That is something I've not seen before!

I appreciate your prompt response. I know where I can come for any future questions that arise during my project.

Cheers,
Eric

[Thundergrunt]

rick

i think i figured out my builds. correct me if i am wrong.

#1 1/350 Tamiya Fletcher USS. Radford DD-446
Task Force 67 Desron 21 Des Div 42
as she arrived for Pacific duty in end of 42/early 43
Measure 22
and Original weapons load out. Which i still dont what it is. or what ship to look at.
I can build out of Box??

# 2 1/350 Trumpeter Fletcher USS. Watts DD-567
Task Force 92 Desron 57 Desdiv 113
Northern Pacific (Alutiens)
Measure 32
Out of Box in 1945 armmament set up??

[Rick E Davis]

Thunder,

As for WATTS, she was completed in the five twin 40-mm mounts configuration and ended the war in that same configuration. So the Trumpeter kit is close. There are some details wrong for the WATTS ... "gun tub" bulwarks ... particularly the one between the 53 and 54 mounts should be the "tear-drop" shape not the "D" shape "Mare Island" tub. The destroyers built in the Puget Sound area, PSNY and Todd SB, had circular shaped tubs before the bridge for the twin 40-mm mounts ... unique to those yards. It is up to you if you wish to make those changes.

This overhead view of a sister-ship to WATTS, LAWS (DD-558) gives you an idea when compared to Trumpeter's kit the differences. FLETCHERS had many variations to bulwarks and such, that no one kit can accommodate them all. I really wish a better kit would be produced, Tamiya and Trumpeter both have problems and even some of the resin kits do as well.

LAWS (DD-558) on 3 February 1944



RADFORD was completed with the higher twin 40-mm mount location between 53 and 54 mounts. But, she was altered to the new standard lower location in October-November 1942 during repairs to grounding damage. RADFORD went to the South Pacific so armed and was in Ms 22 camo for a short time until she repainted to Ms 21 like the rest of Task Force 67. LA VALLETTE and JENKINS also served in Task Force 67, except that LA VALLETTE was torpedoed on 30 January 1943 about two weeks after she arrived and returned to the West Coast for repairs.

To be accurate for RADFORD, you will need to alter the tub between 53 and 54 mounts to the tear-drop shape. Also, when the twin 40-mm mount was lowered the aft con station was moved to the centerline on the Searchlight Platform. RADFORD didn't get the elevated centerline platform forward of the bridge like JENKINS. The Tamiya kit does have the fantail twin 40-mm tub.

When you narrow down your search, I can provide more detailed views if needed.

RADFORD in January 1943 (date uncertain ... I found the same photo with two different dates)


RADFORD on 24 August 1943


As a comparison, here are RADFORD's sisters that retained the higher tub.

LA VALLETTE on 8 October 1942 ... just prior to going to North Africa


JENKINS on 2 September 1943 ... I have always loved this view of JENKINS, a well tested and getting worn destroyer.

[Thundergrunt]

OK Keith & Tony or anyone more research has turned up this for me, do you think this is correct for the Radford Early 43' Catus Striking force..

Going from Bow to Stern.

51 5"
52 5"
single twin 40's behind 52 5" under bridge
torp tubes
single twin 40's aft stack 1 Prt 1 Sbd
torp tubes
4 20mm Ok's 2 prt 2 sbd
53 5"
1 twin 40 above fan/radar room (tear drop)
6 hedgehogs 3 prt 3 sbd on deck adjacent to Radar/Fan room
54 5"
55 5"
1 twin 40 in circular tub between DC racks
2 depth Charge racks 1 prt 1 sdb on fan tail.

[Cliffy B]

Those aren't hedgehogs, they're "K-guns" or depth charge throwers.

Hedgehog ASW Mortar:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hedgehog_%28weapon%29

K-Gun: scroll about halfway down
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K-gun#Delivery_Mechanisms

[Thundergrunt]

Thanks Cliff,
i am ship stupid Especially WWII stuff.

[Rick E Davis]

RADFORD had from November 1942 until about mid-December 1943: two twin 40-mm mounts and seven 20-mm guns, ten torpedo tubes, six K-Guns, and two depth charge drop tracks. Period, nothing was added until she was upgraded to the five twin 40-mm mounts and seven 20-mm guns configuration (similar to WATTS).

Armament locations:
51 and 52 mounts,
On 01 deck before the bridge; 2-20mm guns (one port and one starboard) NO twin 40-mm mounts,
Atop pilothouse; one 20-mm gun on centerline,
Mk 37 director with Mk 4 radar,
Between first and second stack and aft of second stack; two quint torpedo tube mounts (Mk 14 and Mk 15),
On main deck; two 20-mm single mounts on port side and two 20-mm on starboard side,
53 mount,
One twin 40-mm mount centerline at the 02 level with mk 51 director forward of mount above 53 mount,
54 and 55 mounts,
abreast the 53 and 54 mounts on main deck; three K-gun (ASW depth charge mortars/throwers) per side to port and starboard for 300-lb Depth Charges,
On fantail; one twin 40-mm mount with Mk 51 director aft of mount,
Two 600-lb depth charge drop racks on either side of the twin 40-mm mounts.

[Thundergrunt]

Rick thank you emmensly..
look forward to the Radford. soon. I think i might do watts first. as practice and then get into the Radford. Should i get the L Arsenal Fletcher Pe set?

[MartinJQuinn]

Should i get the L Arsenal Fletcher Pe set?

I haven't seen or used the L'Arsenal set, but I did use the Gold Medal Fletcher-class on my Fletcher (along with the Eduard set) and Gatling, and was very happy with it.

[Rick E Davis]

I can't address which is the best PE set to use. Except for the 1/350 scale destroyer kits, which DML has upped the quality over Tamiya and Trumpeter, I have built mostly 1/700 scale ships. For 1/700 I simply don't use much PE ... no rails ... in scale rails wouldn't show unless really close and needs to be much finer than current PE. But items like radar I think really helps the model. I have yet to get a 1/350 scale kit far enough along for PE, which would be desirable. Sigh .... Maybe, when I retire.

I would trust Martin's assessment. I have seen some of L'Arsenal PE and have bought a few examples of their work (including the L'Arsenal Upgrade for the Trumpeter SULLIVANS kit) along with some WEM items and Fine Model items at the 2009 IPMS NATS in Columbus. I have not used any of these on an ACTUAL model to have an opinion about which is better. The Tamiya FLETCHER kit has been around for awhile and the PE sets for use on that kit have been as well and from what I have seen work well and look good on the model.

[Thundergrunt]

Thank you all, I have still yet to finish my first ship AFV Knox , but will soon and my second will be an OHP with PE for the firs time. But thanks alot for the help with the fletcher help I can see some more in my collection for the future.
.

[Rick E Davis]

Thunder,

To help you (and maybe some others) some I'm attaching some drawings from the BIW Engineering Drawings from Destroyer History Organization's DVD of these plans from NARA. If you plan on doing several FLETCHERS, you may want to get this DVD, it is worth the $30.00 cost. This DVD has the four basic versions of FLETCHERS that Bath Iron Works built and it looks like you could build one of these ships with these plans. Other builders had some differences in "style" in doing things, but all FLETCHERS followed the same basic layout. The only pain is navigating the DVD to find what you are looking for. I suggest downloading and printing the drawing list and spending time going through the DVD from end to end to get familiar with what is there.
http://www.destroyerhistory.org/destroyers/store.html

First off almost all of the first 12-15 FLETCHERS completed were modified with additional 20-mm guns and not all ships located them in the same places. There was a lot of confusion when the number of 20-mm guns went from six to four when the fantail twin 40-mm mount was installed and then a series of "authorized" increases in the number of 20-mm guns to five or back to six, then seven, and finally eight for the ships with two twin 40-mm mounts (one on the fantail). RADFORD at least is fairly well documented in photos as to her 20-mm armament.

Here is the aft section of the main deck layout for the "standard" four-40mm configuration FLETCHER. Note the location and pattern for the K-Guns and reload storage.


Here is the Mid main deck area layout for the standard four 40-mm configuration FLETCHER. This is a combo drawing in that the portside" shows the location of the single 20-mm guns (P and S) on the main deck. The starboard side shows the location of the two 20-mm guns (P and S) after the authorized number was again increased to two per side. RADFORD was modified to the "portside" configuration when the fantail twin 40-mm was added. However, by the time RADFORD arrived in the South Pacific, she had returned to two 20-mm guns per side on the main deck.


How for one of the variations to 20-mm locations on the main deck, which applies to RADFORD, some FLETCHERS retained the original two 20-mm guns per side locations that were further aft than the revised locations above. Here is the deck layout for the first three FLETCHERS built by BIW with the quad 1.1-in mount. It looks to me from the available photos, RADFORD added back the 20-mm guns to the locations she initially had. You luck out in that the Tamiya kit has this exact location/configuration for these 20-mm guns.


Just for reference, here is the plans for the elevated centerline platform for a 20-mm gun. RADFORD didn't get this mod, which I have puzzled about since most other FLETCHERS that arrived in the South Pacific at the same time as her, had it. I included this partly to show you the general location of the top of the pilothouse where a single 20-mm was located on the centerline. I couldn't find a drawing (BIW never installed these ... the Navy did) showing the 20-mm in the "exact" location atop the pilothouse ... I'm not sure that there was a "common" location. But with the working circle for the 20-mm gun (5-ft radius) shown on the elevated platform, you can derive the location. Just remember that the working area HAS TO have enough space between the Mk 37 director tower and the gun to operate it. AKA, the 20-mm gun will be less than the 5-ft working radius. The gun wasn't intended to fire back into the Mk 37 director.


Here is the plan layout for the "tear-drop" shaped tub for the twin 40-mm on the deckhouse between 53 and 54 mounts.

[Thundergrunt]

Rick
Thank you very Informative in formation, im on the hunt for some good resin 20mm and 40's I think i want to try and go all out on this ship. to challange me as a modeler as well as new to ships..

[MartinJQuinn]

Rick
Thank you very Informative in formation, im on the hunt for some good resin 20mm and 40's I think i want to try and go all out on this ship. to challange me as a modeler as well as new to ships..

Send a private message to Tony Bunch, who can hook you up with L'Arsenal 20 and 40mm guns. I used them on both the Fletcher (twin 40mm only) and Gatling builds.

[Rick E Davis]

Another thing, if you have gone through the 40 pages in this thread ... dang that is a lot of pages ... you will find comments about the Tamiya FLETCHER kit's 5-in mounts being undersized for the scale. I feel this is true, I don't know exactly how far off they are, but I can tell if a build has replaced them or not in just looking at it with the naked eye. If you are looking at the L'Arsenal 20-mm and 40-mm mounts, look at getting a set of replacement 5-in mounts. The Trumpeter kit's mounts appear to be to scale, but require some care in assemble.

Given the problems with the Tamiya and Trumpeter FLETCHER kits, I really hope someone ... I wonder which company that is ... would produce a series of FLETCHER kits in 1/350 scale. So many famous subjects in so many possible configurations and served so many navies.

[Guest]

Hello All, I just picked up the fletsher in 1/144 scale and I'm going to build my fathers ship. The Remey DD 688. I have a couple questions about this ship, that I hope yall can answer. First is this ship a round bridge or square ? Second is this one of the fletcher class that had a twin rudder set up ? Third since dad was on her maiden voyage from Bath Maine I would like to paint her in her original on that day, does anyone know where I can find a color chart for this measure ? Any links to pictures on that day would be appreciated. I thank you for any and all help.

[Russ2146]

http://www.navsource.org/archives/05/688.htm

http://www.shipcamouflage.com/fletcher_class.htm
http://www.shipcamouflage.com/measure_21.htm

[Guest]

I did want to mention one other thing. Although the model I am building is of a "standard" Fletcher class destroyer, I was wondering if anyone could direct me as to where I could get some 688 decals for the bow?

Thanks