scaledecks.com - New Products Coming Soon!

[johndon]

This provides for a nice surface to attach the PE railings, and it makes a reasonable approximation of the gutter. So the answer is "yes."

Excellent news, I await the release with baited breath

John

[johnd13]

Oh, one last update...

Guess what the nearly three-foot long test cut on the bottom is? (That's a 1/350 Borodino deck up top there for comparison...)

Yes, it is coming along nicely...

[PetrOs]

> Do you guys plan to do a deck for a 1/400 Bearn carrier from L'Arsenal? I would LOVE to see it - her deck would really greatly profit from this!


I think you're right - we could do a super job on that kit, but alas it has not yet made it to our production schedule. I think it might make the list for a 2012 release as our 2011 plans are booked pretty solid right now... If you REALLY want it and are willing to pay a rush fee for it, we could add it to the production list and burn the midnight oil for a few weeks to crank it out for you. Info on custom services can be found on the scaledecks.com website.

(And I think I hear faintly in the distance, "Nooo! Finish the Dragon Scharnhorst and the Trumpeter Arizona, and the Tamiya Yamato and Revell Bismarck..." Can you hear that? I think I can hear it... )

Thanks! I doubt I have the money to rush it, but I am already happy as I know i can have it in a year or so. I have enough kits and master models to do until then

[SeanF]

I quite like this HD deck idea. I was thinking of such a thing when I wrote those comments about the Arizona deck, but thought it would be asking too much. I'm looking forward to this!

The Glencoe Oregon you mentioned... there's another one badly in need of a new deck! Dare I suggest 2 versions, one for the kit as-is, and one for those who want to accurize it by opening up the midship well?

Your list of planned decks and photos of their quality are really starting to give me ideas of what to pull out and start building in this coming year!

- Sean F.

[J.F.S.]

Hello Sir,
Will you be doing a replacement deck for Tamiya 1/350 King George V?
Thankyou
Joe

[jaysond13]

Will you be doing a replacement deck for Tamiya 1/350 King George V?

The Tamiya King George V deck is currently being test cut, we expect it to be ready for a mid-February release.

[Pagodaphile]

Let me be the second voice in that chorus you speak of for 1/700. I think that you would find that you are referring to a significant ratio of the model ship market, as compared to any other scale. The simple practicality of the scale when compared to the larger scales can't be ignored, just by considering the space necessary to display a collection. A simple comparison of the number of photo etch items available for 1/700 to that of other scales is overwhelmingly higher. An area that has not caught up with that ratio is wood decks, the main exception being a few manufacturers in Asia.

You seem to be inferring that the profit margin would not be there as compared to the larger scales (ie the more expensive the kit, the deeper the pockets of the purchaser). Again, I would point to the vast amount of photo etch being sold for that scale. PE has created a higher demand for detail, therefore people are spending more time and money on each build. Those people are buying more individual kits by comparison as well.

Also, you mention that you are considering the sales numbers of decks made for the old 1/400, 1/500 "box scale" kits, as a barometer for the feasibility of entering the 1/700 market. I must disagree with the thinking here. The venerable old "Missouri's" you speak of, while still being sold (mainly to grandma for junior's birthday, I suspect) are an artifact from the seventies, complete with seventies era production technology built-in. 1/700 left these kits in the dust in the nineties. I can't see that many serious builders (your marketing demographic) choosing one of these dinosaurs over the modern kits available (especially if their intent is to create "their" version of a "masterpiece") Therefore, I don't think you would be seeing the results you'd be looking for.

Lastly, you mentioned the forty to fifty" dollar range as your price target. Since I know that is approximately what I am paying now for the few Asian decks I have bought, that would not seem problematic as well......
Best Regards.......

Do you plan to do 1/700 decks ?

If we do it will most likely be in 2012 or beyond. The engineering doesn't take significantly less time, and the price of the kits is so inexpensive that I don't think we'll be able to make as much money off of selling less expensive decks that are in line with the price of the kits. So it just makes more sense for us to concentrate on the larger scales first, to produce a product that can generate more revenue for about the same amount of effort. Once the business is sufficiently launced, and we are running out of projects in the larger scales (which won't be until 2012 at the earliest) then we can delve into the 1/700 market.

Actually, I consider the 1/420 Arizona and 1/535 Missouri by Revell as a good test of that market. These two "been around forever and still selling" kits are low in price. If I can't sell a reasonable amount of decks for them at a margin to justify the engineering time, then it probably doesn't make a lot of sense to make decks for the hundreds of 1/700 kits that could use them.

Now, if the overwhelming chorus was "We would absolutely pay forty or fifty dollars for a 1/700 battleship wood deck" then that would make me start to rethink that strategy. But if the kits go on the street for twenty dollars or so, in my mind that makes a wood deck at forty, or even thirty, dollars a little excessive. If I had to market decks at a twenty dollar price point or less I would have to sell a heck of a lot of them to recoup the engineering for each specific kit that we released.

[johnd13]

Let me be the second voice in that chorus you speak of for 1/700.

Thanks for taking the time for preparing your well-stated and well-reasoned argument. I would be the first to admit that I do not know everything there is to know in this market as I am just getting started here, and I am very eager to learn more.

Maybe there is a market for 1/700 ships, and I'm willing to explore it. If you had to pick, say 2 or 3 kits, in 1/700 that you think would be the best candidates for wood decks, what would they be? I'd be willing to try an experiment and move at least one of them to the top of the production stack to see how long it would take to engineer, and how well it might sell.

So let me toss this open to everybody - what would be excellent 1/700 kits for me to start with to convince me that there is a market out there for wood decks in that scale?

[BFR4570]

Oh, one last update...

Guess what the nearly three-foot long test cut on the bottom is? (That's a 1/350 Borodino deck up top there for comparison...)

Test Cut Scaled.JPG

OH MY! That looks like it will be gorgeous! Any idea how much yet?

[johnd13]

OH MY! That looks like it will be gorgeous! Any idea how much yet?

List price is $129.00 (It takes up TWO WHOLE SHEETS OF 11x17 wood!) but I am planning to offer an introductory price of $99.95 for the first 30 days or so...

[bismarck builder]

hi
does the scharnhorst deck come with all the lifeboats and interiors?
as i only see 1 lifeboat on page 1
cheers
gary r

[johnd13]

does the scharnhorst deck come with all the lifeboats and interiors?
as i only see 1 lifeboat on page 1

Yes, it sure does!

Early on in the test cut phase we only cut "one of each" for every distinct part. That way we can test fit to make sure we get that part right, and then once it's perfect and locked down we replicate it on the cutting pattern to make the appropriate quantity. The math on the Scharnhorst is something like 30 or so distinct pieces, but the cut count is well over 60 due to the duplicates. Right now we're rearranging all those pieces on the wood to make sure that we get a good cut of every piece. Once that's done we'll work on the planking pattern and then start knocking out our first production run. We are really, really close on the Scharnhorst now.

Another interesting thing that we are doing with this kit is offering "alternates." For example, in the kit the wood under the gun tubs is round, with the planking being in radiant spokes. If you get the excellent Kagero 3D book on the Scharnhorst, the gun tubs are lined with octagonal mats. So which is proper and what should we cut?

The answers are "who knows?" and "we should cut BOTH to allow the modeler to decide what they prefer." How's that for a solution?

[navydavesof]

This is some really impressive stuff, guys! I am really looking forward to seeing the Tamiya Modern New Jersey pieces. You're going to make a killing off of me.

[bismarck builder]

hi john
thanks for the email your customer service is second to none
your right about the scharnhorst in 3d its a fantastict book
looking forward to ordering your scharny deck
cheers
gary r

[Robin]

OH MY! That looks like it will be gorgeous! Any idea how much yet?

List price is $129.00 (It takes up TWO WHOLE SHEETS OF 11x17 wood!) but I am planning to offer an introductory price of $99.95 for the first 30 days or so...

Also when it will be ready for market?

Looks great so far!

[johnd13]

Also when it will be ready for market?

As you can see, the 1/200 Arizona is a beast. It's taking a while to center all of those holes, and we're not going to make our agressive January target. However we are optimistic for the first half of February. We are on the home stretch, so just a couple of weeks now...

[BFR4570]

Does the deck take into account the 'gutter' that runs round the edge of the deck as shown in the picture below (i.e. does your deck run right to the very edges of the hull or is there a gap left?

What we are doing (usually) is making a piece of wood that exactly fits the "deck" part, without incorporating the cast hull sides. Since the decks drop into the well formed by the hull, our decks end where the plastic piece deck piece ends, thus leaving the top of the vertical hull sides exposed and uncovered. This provides for a nice surface to attach the PE railings, and it makes a reasonable approximation of the gutter. So the answer is "yes."

I note in the photo that "edge planking" is shown as well, that appears between the gutter and the longitudinal planks. At present, we are NOT incorporating that into 1/350 decks. Since our planks have to be overscale anyway to be visible, in our opinion the overscale edge planking would look "wrong." So straight lines right into the gutter for 1/350 is the norm.

A couple of exceptions...

First, we ARE Looking at edge planking for the 1/200 Arizona. At almost twice the scale, I think we will be able to get away with that.........

A few questions, if I may, regarding your plans for this deck:
Will the deck be cut-out around the octagonal engineering access panels that flank the aft-most mainmast pole, or will they be planked over? (Or even separate, optional inserts? There really was a planking "seam" there, so it's a perfectly viable option)

.......
As for the specifics on the Arizona, we haven't decided what we are going to do with the octagonal hatches. We think that on the 1/200 we will print them on the wood, and if the hobbyist wants to cut them out they can do that. The 1/200 kit allows for a plastic (simulated metal) plate to be placed there, or you can leave it with the wood planked pattern molded into the deck. We figure we will print the lines on the wood, and if you want to add the plastic piece on top then you would be free to do that. We haven't decided what to do on the 1/350 kit yet.
..............

First, I would like to thank you for tackling the 1/200 Arizona so quickly! Not many manufacturers would be so willing to take on such a big job so soon after they have started up a new company. It is a credit to your business acumen that you recognized a need and you were willing to fill that need so quickly.

Now, on to my request. As many on this forum can testify, these octagonal Engineering hatches have been my pet peeve about all the previous kits made of this ship. With this new model from Trumpeter, we now have a plastic model with a somewhat correct representation of these hatches molded into the deck. They included the notched ends of the deck planks that intersect with the angled portions of the hatch borders, both inside and out. It surprised me when I just noticed this, as I hadn't looked that closely before. But, they cut across the notched ends when they made the angled cuts for these sections. The other errors on the Trumpeter model are the dividing board that cuts the hatch in half, is actually two boards in the pictures. And the smaller rectangular hatch inside the rear half of the octagonal hatch, while it is shown correctly with a two board border, does not have any deck plank engraving inside this border, as it should have. It is my hope you will be able to make these corrections on your new decks. I don't know if you will be able to do detail this fine at this scale, but it looks like the best chance to do so.

I am glad you are going to try to put the edge boards around the perimeter of the decks. Do you know yet if you will be able to include the notching in these also? I hope you can with this larger scale. Edge boards were also used around EVERY piece of deck equipment and fitting. Especially the Barbettes. These edge boards were thicker on the side against the equipment or fitting so as to force any water away from that point so it wouldn't pool. I know there is no way you can do that with your technique, but just showing the boards would be an incredible look. All deck planks that intersect with any of these edge boards with anything but a square butt joint, were notched. While the deck planks were generally about six to eight inches wide on the battleships, the edge boards were ten to twelve, or maybe even fourteen, inches wide, depending whether they were surrounding something round or square, and how much space they had to fill to fit between the regular deck planks. I have not seen any pictures where the edge boards were notched into the side of a deck plank. They always seem to butt flush with a full width plank. Its like they adjust the size of the edge boards to fit around the fitting and between full planks. If anyone else has seen a picture with notch in the side of a deck plank, please speak up. This is the final error I can see with the Engineering hatches on the Trumpeter 1/200 Arizona. They did not line up the edges of the hatches that parallel the deck planks with the edge of a deck plank. The deck planks along these edges of the hatches are one-quarter to one-half the width of the other deck planks. This does not agree with any of the pictures I have seen.

The last item I would like to mention is the rows of tiny holes that are shown on various plans, and are included on this model. You can see these holes in several pictures in Paul Stillwell's book about the Arizona. It is my belief that these were used to support canopy poles when canopies were rigged for shade. These are not to be confused with the mounting holes Trumpeter put on this model for the boat racks or other fittings. These holes are about two inches in diameter (approx.) in the pictures. The holes on the model are in straight lines on each of the decks, paralleling the deck planks. These holes are about one-quarter the size of the various mounting holes that are also molded into the deck. I mention this because I noticed on your test cut of the new Arizona deck it appears these holes are all the same size as the mounting holes. Is this the smallest hole you can cut? If so, maybe just make a dot where these smaller holes belong and the modeler can drill them out him, or her, self.

P.S. - I really like that new sample you did with the inkjet printer and dying the wood. Will the inkjet printer do finer detail than you were doing with the laser printer?

[johnd13]

Let me see if I can answer some questions about the 1/200 Arizona.

First, as I have stated before, it is quite tricky to line up the printed pattern with the laser cutter. If you are off even the tiniest amount, then things won't line up properly. Picture a barbette ring where it is three times as thick on one side of the barbette versus the other side. I don't think any of you would tolerate that, because I know I would not. So if it's not lined up, then I have just junked up an entire 11x17 sheet of wood. That gets real expensive real fast.

So right now we are working on completely locking down an alignment technique. Once I get the results back from that, then we'll be able to make some decisions as to how much detail we want to print into the deck.

Things like standard deck planking, uniformly applied (even tinted) are no problem as the pattern does not have to be precisely aligned with the cut; wherever the planks end up is just fine for these purposes. Once you start talking about deck fittings then the whole scenario changes.

On the I-400, for example, there were metal bars inlaid into the deck to form a non-skid tread around the gun mounts. And on the Konig there were rails (much like railroad tracks) laid into the deck for moving the boats around. In both of these instances we have printed a standard plank pattern on the wood, cut the wood as appropriate, then gone back and airbrushed in the metal components in gray over the planked wood being careful to line up these features with the cuts. So that solved that problem at least for now, and allows us to release product.

Once you start talking about edge planking, or barbette planking, or that crazy patchwork stuff on the modern New Jersey we are talking about an entirely different situation. In these instances, the plank pattern would have to be printed, and the cuts would have to line up precisely with those planked patterns. Anything less than perfect alignment is not going to be acceptable. The problem is not in printing the detail, the problem is in getting the cutter to precisely align with the detail. Throw in the issue were the laser printer wasn't maintaining a good grip on the wood, and therefore the image would "stretch" or "compress" inconsistently every time and you can see why attempting to do anything other than linear planking prior to cutting was hopeless.

With the inkjet, the stretch/compress problem is eliminated. There is a minor ink bleed problem that the toner didn't have, but I think that is all manageable. So, for most kits I am pretty confident that I will be able to offer four materials: Natural light maple, natural rich teak, tinted wood (probably maple, but maybe basswood or black gum) and photo paper. (Photo paper would allow me to get really precise, and I am hoping that the burning laser will brown the edges so that there is no white visible at the cuts. If God loves me then the physics of the laser cut will solve that problem and the coloration of the paper after the burn will closely match the tan of the deck or at least be a pleasing shade of brown representing a shadow. But when it comes to the cut, and the pattern, the material that we print on isn't really the issue. So let's take a look at the next steps.

Right now we are worrying about the cut instructions for the laser. This is, by far, the most time-consuming part of the entire process. We want to make sure that our decks are snug up against every fitting, and that all the features line up. If there is too much distance between two features - let's say barbettes just to keep it obvious - then the wood deck would warp or bunch up in that area. Too little distance and the wood would tear. So the distance has to be exactly right, and we're aiming for somewhere in the neighborhood of .010 inch accuracy. (A note here to answer one of your questions: as we are doing alignment, sometimes we work with slightly larger holes so that we can view the fit to make sure that the deck hole is perfectly centered in our cut hole - and if it is, in the final fitting cycle we simply reduce the size of the cut hole because we know that the center is dead on.)

Once we are satisfied with the test cut on cardstock, and we know that it lays down flat without tearing and that everything lines up, then we will replicate any duplicate parts and lay out a final sheet so that it fits nicely on the sheet of wood and so that the wood will fit nicely in a mailer. (Unlike some other manufacturers, we usually sell you the entire sheet to keep all the pieces in place, and then you can cut them loose as you need them much like cutting brass or molded parts from the sprue.) Only after we have the final layout done do we start to worry about coming up with a planking pattern.

At this point (and we are pretty close to this now with the Arizona) we would decide what features we may need to print on the wood, and incorporate that into a pattern that will be printed prior to cutting. And here's where those octagonal hatches come into play. We can print anything on the wood that we like, or we may decide to print nothing on the wood at all to not attempt to render a feature that we feel would be nedlessly out of scale and therefore just "wrong." We would try to come up with patterns that are pleasing to the eye and look right, even if they don't measure out right exacty to scale. So, for the Arizona, we would hit the reference materials and try to come up with something right for those areas of the deck. AND, let me offer this, if you want to send a drawing of exactly how you think it should be to johnd@scaledecks.com, then I'd be deligted to take a look at that and see if it squares with the reference photos available and use that as the basis for our pattern.

As for other areas, such as edge planking, I think we will have a large enough area to play with to attempt this on the Arizona. And... YES, I was planning to attempt the zig-zag lines so that each plank ends properly into the outer edge plank. I was also planning on doing "frames" around the prominent deck fittings as well, but I am waiting to see the final cuts before I decide about that. If I can do a frame around the barbettes and have a reasonable result then I will do that, too. At 1/200 scale a 4 inch plank is 1/50 of an inch wide so look at a ruler and picture one-third of 1/16 inch or one-half of 1mm. It's very small. Would frames that wide around fittings look bad? I won't know until I try to print them, and more importantly until we try to line them up with the laser cutting process.

As for accuracy of the inkjet, the specs say that I can go to 4800x2400 dpi resolution. The human eye can't detect anything less than 1/1000 for the most part - so the resolution is there to get a good result. And yes, this is better and finer than I was able to get with the laser printer - and the advantage of being able to work with different tints and colors to fool the eye is also a huge plus. I think the results will be great.

Oh, one other thing to mention too is the Scharnhorst. On that kit we are doing parts for the Werker Boats, and a lot of those used darker woods for some of the features. Now with the inket our plan would be to lay down a solid, darker layer (or pehaps a variety of darker tints) to deepen the color of the wood parts that should be darker wood. We can do the same thing for pilot houses and other wood features on other kits that require darker woods, too. We don't think that anybody else is offering that feature. (And for us it's easy; since we're printing on the wood anyway, and we don't have to precisely align the dark features, we can just print a large area or areas and tint that darker, then cut all of the darker pieces out of that zone.) We are also playing with sending different "sprues" for some special kits - say the 1/225 Oregon with the deck cut from one sheet of wood and the pilot house cut from a darker sheet of wood. If the tinting doesn't look right then we'll probably end up doing that for larger features on larger scale kits; I don't think it would make a whole lot of difference on the 1/350 Scharnhorst, but we'll see and we'll do what's right.

As for the edge planking, failing somebody telling me that this approach would be "all wrong" for the Arizona, (and my copy of Stillwell's book is with my engineer right now) I would think that I will attempt to do an edge joint with intersections something like this photo from the previous page:



As always, everybody's opinions are always welcome and appreciated.

-- John D. --

[BFR4570]

Thanks Johnd13 for the detailed explanation of the different procedures you need to follow to do these correctly. I have dabbled a little in forms alignment in the computer and I can sympathize with you about the frustrations. And the tolerances I was dealing with were nowhere near what you are having to deal with. The quality you are putting out is amazing. One advantage of doing the edge boards will be the fact that they are wider than the standard deck planks, not narrower. I don't believe there were any 4 inch boards used on the battleships. I had posted a question here some months ago about deck plank dimensions and received a couple responses giving actual dimensions and drawings of how the planks were fitted with the edge boards. The edge boards were generally between 10" and 14" wide. The deck planks were 6" or 8" wide. Unfortunately, I tried to find that thread recently and it appears to be gone, or merged into another thread, because it does not appear in the list of "View My Posts". If anyone else remembers this thread and knows where it may be, please speak up, as this was some nice reference material. I believe the boards were wider so that there would still be plenty of material left for strength after any notching for the deck planks, and radius cuts on the inside for curved fittings, such as the barbettes and round vents. If you notice on the picture of the New Jersey deck, the edge board is considerably wider than the deck planks. The boards around the barbettes were similarly sized. At this scale of 1/200, I believe that if you can't get them on the decks, only the people who know about edge boards will notice they aren't there. But if you CAN add them to your deck, everyone will notice! Which will enhance the realism of the model so much more. I know there are technical restraints, as well as practical restraints, with which you must contend. So I will just say that I hope you are able to do all this without too many problems. Or hopefully without any problems, but I know that won't happen. If it involves computers, there WILL be problems! That is a given. Anyway, thanks again for the detailed explanation of your procedures.

[PetrOs]

Hello,

Another question, I noticed that you have a Titanic deck pending, any chance you would also do the Lusitania deck for Gunze kit?