At 'Em Arizona Fans!

[dsk]

Okay, question time re: the red turret tops. Did the red continue all the way to the edges of the turret or did it terminate under the handrails a few feet from the edge? I've seen modelers do it both ways.

[Jon C Ryckert]

Roman, I kinda figured that what is was but I'm just wondering if I need to add more plastic to the part to bring it out where it is just shy of the front face of the conning tower splinter sheild.

dsk, I know it's hard to tell from black and white photo's but if the above pic I posted is of any help, it looks like the red went out to the ends of the turret top. Then again it might also be a layer of fuel oil that has settled on the top from the tides. Just guessing here.

[SeanF]

Okay, question time re: the red turret tops. Did the red continue all the way to the edges of the turret or did it terminate under the handrails a few feet from the edge? I've seen modelers do it both ways.

In prewar shots of the various ships, whenever I can see the tops are colored and probably not deck gray, there's usually a perimeter around the color patch, such as in this shot of Pennsylvania:
http://navsource.org/archives/01/013800c.jpg
Or here on Colorado, where the perimeter can be seen around the black on turret 2 and the white on turret 4:
http://www.navsource.org/archives/01/014561.jpg
In the following shot, California's white clearly has a perimeter around it after the attack:
http://www.navsource.org/archives/01/014429.jpg
Navsource's shot of Pennsylvania in drydock behind the wrecked destroyers is the grainier of the two that I've seen from that angle (in the other one you can see her radar clearly), but there may be a perimeter around her white tops. Hard to say from this shot:
http://www.navsource.org/archives/01/013823.jpg
In the Stillwell book on page 214, dated March 30, 1939 per the caption, Arizona's #4 turret has a band of standard gray around the red patch. It's kind of hard to tell along the side, and the hose (or whatever that is that lays around the turret top) gets in the way, but note the horizontal surface at the back of the turret which is clearly lighter than the center of the top; likewise at the front of the turret.
Whether the top colors went to the edge or were surrounded by a perimeter is something I suspect may have varied from ship to ship. Based on my observations, though, I can't recall seeing any of them that did go all the way to the edge. Hence, my Arizona and Pennsy have perimeters around their turret top colors.

- Sean F.

[dsk]

Thanks, that's what I thought given that's the way they are on Don Pruel's model. But others took the color to the edges so I wanted to be sure it wasn't that somebody knew something he didn't.

[SeanF]

Most models and drawings I've seen that incorporate the red tops take them to the edge. Certainly easier to mask that way. But based on what I've laid out, and in the absence of a color photo of Arizona in her Ms. 1 days that clearly shows otherwise, (or even a good black and white where you can actually tell the difference between the red and the 5-D or 5-S), I'm pretty confident there should be a boundary of the base turret color (looks like it's between 1' and 2' wide on the real thing) around the identification color.

- Sean

[Steve Sobieralski]

This photo of Pennsylvania shows how the shell plating around the conning tower ends just below the brackets supporting the walkway.

http://navsource.org/archives/01/038/013803f.jpg

[leftie]

Turret Top color. But Why Is The Number 1 Turret not showing any red?

[mark_sch]

Looks like some robe and stuff on top covering up the color maybe.
Mark

[Timmy C]

As I recall, the red was a late 30s thing - before that, there was grey, though I don't know on which turrets.

For sure you can see a V patch of light colour on either sides of the centre gun barrel on turret one that should be dark in colour if it had been painted.

[SeanF]

Looks like some robe and stuff on top covering up the color maybe.
Mark

No, look at where the rope loops back in the middle. There's no color on turret one at this time.

See also the overhead shot of the Colorado I referenced a few posts up; having both forward turret tops painted wasn't always the case. I recall seeing somewhere (Tracy's Researcher@Large site, maybe) that a 1940 or 41 order went out emphasizing that both forward turrets were to be painted (thus implying that they weren't always done that way before). I don't have time at the moment to look it up again. Maybe later, if no one else has found it by the time I get a chance.

- Sean F.

[Steve Sobieralski]

According to Navsource this photo dates from 1938 and is of the Pennsylvania.

[Leftie]

Steve S,

You're probably right. But wouldn't the Pennsylvania turrets be: Turret 1 white, Turret 2 white, Turret 4 Blue?

[Dana Bell]

Turret Top color. But Why Is The Number 1 Turret not showing any red?

The original August 1938 orders didn't specify both forward turrets, so many ships saw the division color on Turret 2 only. I believe that the letter that specified painting both forward turrets was from mid-1940. Even after that date, some divisions further distinguished themselves by selecting which forward turrets would be painted.

Cheers,



Dana

[Leftie]

Dana...You are the best! I'm glad I've given you some of my hard earned cash. Keep The Info Coming!

[dsk]

Question next:

What the heck are the two things attached to the railing on the navigation bridge (shown here in a picture of Don Pruels model)? I can also see remnants of them in the post-attack photos like the one Ron posted a few posts above.

[JCRAY]

Lights; port: red / starboard:green

[SeanF]

Steve S,

You're probably right. But wouldn't the Pennsylvania turrets be: Turret 1 white, Turret 2 white, Turret 4 Blue?

Not for 1938. At that time, Pennsylvania was ship #3 of BatDiv One, the division Arizona was flagship of. Pennsylvania moved to BatDiv 2 (and switched accordingly to white forward turret tops) when she switched places with Oklahoma in mid-1941.

- Sean F.

[Tracy White]

Leftie: interesting photo. Private collection or from a book?

I got unsubscribed from this thread for a bit, so I'm coming in late to the discussion on a couple of points.

Let me just say that there is no proof at this point of any particular scheme or paint color on December 7th. I'm working on putting together a trip to see if I can solve that this fall.... but there are no guarantees. If you are not comfortable paintig it the way you want at this point you have three options:
1) prewar gray
2) Measure 1
3) wait

We know she was in the first two at least, it's December 7th we need to figure out. All my research has really done is muddy the waters, but leave the possibility of something other than straight Measure 1 very possible. Anyone who says otherwise really doesn't know what they're talking about, and I'd be more than happy to illustrate this point with references if they want to say otherwise.

20mms though... intriguing. Off to look at some of my wreckage photos....

[Tracy White]

Note what looks like a long, thin gun barrel pointing up from the foremast's MG platform (along with what might be a metal stop rail around it).

After looking at a couple of scans I grabbed at San Francisco NARA I'm reasonably certain the forward AA guns were .50 cal and not 20mms. Nothing definitive on the aft fighting top, but my gut says no. Note the extra pole on the tub though....

[Bondoman]

I have to say, those pictures posted by SeanF sure do look like Oerlikons, if they are real.