The Ship Model Forum

Hi,

I'm going to make a start on my Battle of Coronel Combrig trio of HMS Monmouth, Good Hope and Glasgow, with the first, but am quite baffled by the various armament fits quoted for Monmouth. The fourteen 6" make perfect sense but when it comes to the 12-pdrs and 3-pdrs things become hazy especially if plans for HMS Kent in the Friedman book are consulted. I can see the two pairs of 12-pdrs in the fore and aft ports and the six, three per side, on the main deck - but what about those forward on the main deck and possibly some on the rear superstructure as shown by David Griffith in his ship models book (but not in Friedman's plan of HMS Kent)?

Can anyone please help me with the disposition of the 'light' guns (including any machine guns/maxims) for Monmouth as carried in 1914? It is the usual problem I face when ship modelling (as opposed to making aircraft)- a real struggle for good references that show what I'm looking for.

Many thanks and a very Happy New Year to all ship modelers out there!

Cheers,

GrahamB

Her armament was:

14 x 6" (15,2 cm)
10 x 12-pounder (7,62 cm) (according to Friedman only 8 !?)
3 x 3-pounder (4,7 cm)

I see these 12-pounders:
6 midships on upper deck level
2 upper deck level embrasures (bow)
2 main deck level embrasures (stern)

The 3-pounders are difficult to see. According to the plans they are:
2 forecastle level, behind 6" casemate
2 on the upper level of the midship bulwark, on small deckhouse, between first two funnels.

The problem is that there are more 3-pounders on the plans compared to list of her armament!

According to Friedman's plan there are two Maxim machine guns at the after end of the superstructure, which are impossible to see on the photos, which I have.

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Hi Maxim,

thanks for this - and you have also pointed out the anomalies between the quoted armament and what can be seen on plans (such as for Kent). I think that David Griffith's model of Kent shows what might be 12pdrs on the rear superstructure - where the Maxims are shown in the Friedman plans. Still, there was 11 years for modifications and changes to the initial secondary and tertiary armament but finding good photographs of the 1914 period is the issue.

I'll press on anyway - my first Combrig kit.

Cheers,

GrahamB

Do you have found photos with a gun above the rear 6" casemates?

In Ships of the World History of British cruisers is a photo of Essex in 1912-14 (p. 56), which appear to have a 3-pounder there (not bulwarks there!). In the same book is a photo of Cumberland (p. 59) - also without bulwarks there and there appear to be a small gun to the rear of the search light above the rear 6" casemates. But it is difficult to see.

I found somewhere a photo of Cumberland in 1913 in Malta, which also have a gun there, which could be a 12-pounder. But the photo is very small. Kent in 1914 appear to have no gun there (see here). There is a search light at the position of the gun on David's model. I also cannot see a gun there on this early photo of Cumberland (only perhaps a 3-pounder next to the forward funnel).

The most obvious difference between the ships as completed and in 1914 are probably the spotting tops and the high topmasts. I would expect bigger changes of the armament to have happened latter in First World War.

I have started to built HMS Monmouth and I would like to depict her in 1914, therefore I am searching for similar information.

Later I would like to built a modified ship, e.g. HMS Donegal (p. 288 in Friedman) with dazzle pattern and the 6" guns moved to the upper deck.

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Hi Maxim,

I've not yet found a photo showing the rear superstructure guns (should keep looking) - the HMS Kent example was only David Griffith's model. Yes, searchlights are in the most aft position but there is 3pdr? on each side just above the 6" casement. I agree that the fighting tops is the main consideration for 1914 compared to as-built.

I'd love to do some of the armoured cruisers in their dazzle too - King Alfred is a great example (Combrig Good Hope or Leviathan kit) - but the original colour dazzle plans/schemes are held by the IWM and most are not viewable on-line. Those for the older cruiser HMS Highflyer are - wow, what a pattern! Someone has those of HMS Cochrane and Duke of Edinburgh (same pattern) photographed and these can be seen on line though - no kits unfortunately.

Good luck with your build.

Cheers,

GrahamB

3-pounders were probably easy to move, also indicated be the discrepancy of the number of assigned guns and the possible number of gun positions according to the plans and photos.

The guns I have seen on photos were actually at the most aft position, similar to the position of the Maxim machine guns on the plan in Friedman's book. Above the aft 6" casemates probably the search lights were located, e.g. visible on the linked photo of Kent in 1914.

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Hi,

Here are some shots of a model of HMS Kent that was at the Granville Island Sport Fishing Model Ships and Trains Museum, which is now closed.













While not a builders model, it is very well done.

Cheers,
George

Thank you for the photos!

There are also no light guns on the after superstructure. Are the ones next to the forward two funnels correct? Especially the one next to the middle funnel?

It is interesting that there are a lot of models of the Drake class and County class featuring the Victorian painting scheme, whereas I have only seen photos of some of the real ships, which had this during their trials (with incomplete armament). The RN switched to grey camouflage about the time these two classes were built.

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Here is HMS Kent in grey. HMS Kent at HMCS Naden, the training base for HMCS Esquimalt just west of Victoria B.C., is a hand made model representing the ship after her repairs from the Battle of the Falklands. Once again a different representation of the small arms.

















Cheers,
George

Hi George,

these photos of Kent are wonderful and very helpful - many thanks for posting them. It is amazing what is out there in the form of large-scale models. I remember there were at least two of these builder's models at my naval boarding school in England but I can't recall (after 40 years) what they were.

At least my Monmouth is out of the box now and about to receive her bath in soapy water before I get on with building/painting.

Cheers,

GrahamB