The Ship Model Forum

Does anyone know where the 5" mags were located on the CBs? I'm working on the design for the theoretical single ended Talos conversion (aft) and I want to accurately place the system with respect to the 5" mags. From a cursory exam I believe the whole Talos installation could be added while leaving the after 5"/38s (Mts 54 and 55) but I think that all depends on where their mags are located.

I can't find any "Booklet of General Plans" for the class and while the TFW series are superb plans, they don't show the interior. I do have the deck drawings from Dulin and Garzke's "US BBs in WWII" but they are unlabeled save for a simplified engineering layout. Below is a scan of said deck drawings. If anyone could highlight the mags I'd greatly appreciate it.


*The numbers correspond to an armor thickness table in the book.*

I would think that based on their arrangement that they would share the same 5" mag layout as the CAs/CLs (in between the barbettes and engineering) but I want to be sure and as accurate as possible.

Any and all help is appreciated as always.

_________________
Drawing Board:
1/700 Whiff USS Leyte and escorts 1984
1/700 Whiff USN Modernized CAs 1984
1/700 Whiff ASW Showdown - FFs vs SSGN 1984

Slipway:
1/700 Whiff USN ASW Hunter Killer Group Dio 1984

I've searched high and low for a Booklet of General Plans for the class, to no avail. I'd also be interested in a set if anyone has them available. Floating Drydock has quite a few detailed plans of things like antenna rigging arrangements, radar coax plans, etc, but no booklet of general plans...

I've called NARA about CB-1 and CB-2, and they have plans available but as I'm in Texas I'm dependent on researchers in College Park - and the services I've contacted to make reproductions have never responded to my emails...

Here's my take on CB-3, had it been completed a few months later than CB-1 and CB-2:

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/161 ... 5%20NB.png

I tried to incorporate some of the typical "late war" surface combatant features, listed below:

- Late 1945 Measure 22, incorporating the new greys then available (versus the earlier blues)
- SK-2 air search radar
- "Cockpit" Mk.37 directors with Mk.12/22 radars
- "Square back" Mk.38 directors with Mk.13 radars
- Late-war overall gloss sea blue Seahawk with VCS-17 markings
- Whip antennas at the air defense level and P&S of the funnel
- Late-war RCM fit:
-- TDY-1 trainable jamming antenna on a new platform extending aft of the fire control tower
-- Attendant "Sword" antennas at opposite ends of the superstructure (shielded from the TDY jammer) to monitor enemy reactions to jamming
-- DBM-1 radar direction finders in radomes on a yard P&S of the SK-2 radar service platform (barely visible in this stupid scale)
-- TDY-1a S-band jamming system, with a P&S radome at the 02 level immediately abeam the front of the catapult (transmitter), with receiving antenna in a radome on an extension aft of the foremast (same installation that CB-1 and 2 received in real life)
-- "Sword" and "Derby" antennas on the yardarms
- All features visible on the few photos available of CB-3: 40mm gun tub replacing the bow 20mm tubs and simplified superstructure aft of the conning tower.

Colosseum,

I live in Oregon and I have obtained microfilm blueprints for several ships from NARA without ever leaving my computer. Now I think you can get scanned images from the microfilm on DVD. Here is what you need to do:

1. Obtain the "Reel Number" for the blueprints for your ship from the Archivists at NARA. This will be in "Record Group 19" where ship plans are cataloged. The Reel Number is actually a catalog number for the drawings for a particular ship.

2. Find out how many physical reels of microfilm are in the "Reel." This is confusing, but a given catalog Reel Number may include many physical reels of film. For example, the Cleveland class light cruiser Reel Number 5537 had 19 individual reels of microfilm.

3. Also find out if there is an Index Reel. Some pre-war plans did not have a single index reel that listed all of the drawings, but had an index on each individual reel. To find out what drawings were on which reel you had to buy all of the reels ($$$). Later plans have an Index Reel that lists all plans for a ship.

4. Drawings are included on the reels in the order listed in the Navy Filing Manual listed on page 43 of this document:

http://www.hnsa.org/doc/pdf/navyfile1950.pdf

Hull drawings (S1, S11) are on the first microfilm reel. Figuring which reel contains other drawings can be tricky. Small boats (S82) are usually on the last reel. You can make a guess which reel holds what by dividing the total number of reels by dividing 97 (the highest S number) by the number of reels. This tells the approximate number of drawing categories on each reel. Then if you want to know which reel the propellers (S44) are on, divide 44 by the number of categories on a reel. This doesn't always work because some categories have only a few drawings (propellers, for example) and others (engineering) may have many hundreds of drawings. But it will tell you approximately which reel will hold the propeller drawings.

5. Order the reels you want. NARA doesn't sell copies - they have a 501(c)(3) friends group who actually do the work. You send an order for Record Group 19, catalog Reel Number whatever, and the physical reel numbers. Last I looked it cost $65 per reel. The Archivist will tell you how to order. They used to mail an order form that you then sent in to place the order - along with a check.

OK, so you aren't sure that the drawings you want are on a particular reel. But how much will it cost you to hire someone at College Park to look through the reels to see where the drawings are? In the long run it is probably cheaper to order a reel, look at it and see if the drawings you want are on it. If not you will at least have a good idea which reel (lower or higher number) will have the drawings. And at least you will have blueprints for some part of the ship that may come in handy someday.

****

This all takes time, but you can get the drawings without having to pay someone else to try to guess what you really want.

****

Here is a site where you can search for ship plans at NARA:

http://www.hnsa.org/doc/nara/searchplans/index.php

Phil

_________________
A collision at sea will ruin your entire day. Aristotle

If you get microfilm, some libraries still have microfilm readers. When you look at your reels, each frame has a number and some drawings have several frames for one plan sheet. There will be a LOT of frames that are of little use for modelers, though. I have some reels that show where every light switch is located in every compartment in the ship, for example. Unfortunately, many of the original drawing were done in pencil and have faded to the point that, when they were microfilmed, they were practically unreadable, especially for older ships.

Make a list of frames you want to use then take them to an architectural document processing company. You should be able to find one in your area by searching for "microfilm blowback." They can make paper prints from the microfilm images. You may have to splice several sheets together, but once you have a complete drawing you can take them to Kinkos/FedEx and use their blueprint copier to reduce them to whatever size you need.

Have fun with your microfilm. You'll be amazed at some of the stuff you'll find on the reels. I have one for a repair ship that included a proposal sketch for the splinter shields added to BB 5"/25's, and another reel had a complete set of plans for a 4-piper destroyer that had nothing to do with the main focus of the rest of the reel. Some reels have multiple ships of the same class, or sets of plans from different refits.

I wish they still processed them like they did when I bought most of mine. They were only $26 per reel at the time and NARA did the processing, so no outside vendor markup. I even ended up buying a used microfilm reader that was converted to accept 16mm, 35mm and sheets. It's expensive in the long run, but many times it's the only place you'll find some of this stuff.

Is there any good books or source for the Alaska's? And is there any that discuss the design and what a prewar style ship would look like? I am sure there would have been a much reduced AA fit and probably designed with 1.1's and .50 calibers, they probably while building just kept cramming guns everywhere they could.

TIA

Matt

_________________
In the yards right now:
USS Utah AG-16
On Hold
1/350 USS Portland CA-33 1942
1/350 Trumpeter Texas with a twist

Matt,

Best bet is to either read through the Alaska chapter in Friedman's Cruiser book or look through some of the designs listed in the Cruiser section of the USN's Spring Styles Book #3 (1939-1944).

http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/albums/s511-cr.htm

Six different Alaska designs are listed dating from Jan to Jun of 1940. Friedman lists all of them (there are A LOT) in table form and describes an assortment in varying amounts of detail. These early designs all show the standard 4 1.1" and a plethora of boats and cranes. No .50s listed but they'd be there.

_________________
Drawing Board:
1/700 Whiff USS Leyte and escorts 1984
1/700 Whiff USN Modernized CAs 1984
1/700 Whiff ASW Showdown - FFs vs SSGN 1984

Slipway:
1/700 Whiff USN ASW Hunter Killer Group Dio 1984

Thanks Cliffy! I forgot about the spring style booklet. Now I need to get my hands on a copy of Friedman's Cruiser book without having to remortgage the house. With all the talk of what they might have become, got me thinking of what they started out as.

Thanks again!

Matt

_________________
In the yards right now:
USS Utah AG-16
On Hold
1/350 USS Portland CA-33 1942
1/350 Trumpeter Texas with a twist

A 1/96 scale mold has been made and the hulls will made available soon at Scale Shipyard. Enquire at Scale Shipyard site for details on the model and price.

http://scaleshipyard.com/Main%20Pages/main.html

Duane

_________________
Harry S. Truman CVN 75, George W. Bush CVN 77
Makin Island LHD 8, Oak Hill LSD 51
Vincennes CG 49, Port Royal CG 72
Cole DDG 67, The Sullivans DDG 68
Bainbridge DDG 96, Jason Dunham DDG 109
Arthur W. Radford DD 968, Kidd DDG 993
Chicago CG 11

Very nice.

_________________
Martin

"Tomorrow is the most important thing in life. Comes into us at midnight very clean. It's perfect when it arrives and it puts itself in our hands. It hopes we've learned something from yesterday." John Wayne

Ship Model Gallery

There is a quite large scale model of USS Alaska at the Oklahoma Space Science museum. Is there any part of the builders model anyone wants to see? I'm going to be shooting it myself soon and would be happy to try and get specific angles in anyone needs them.

In looking at those onboard shots of the Hawaii, I think that new tub just behind the capstans was a twin size tub. In the shot looking forward, it already appears smaller than the bow quad 40 tub and that is considerably distant. Also noticed twin sized tubs on the deck just forward of mounts 54 and 55. Hawaii poses a lot of what if possibilities. Great job on your render, I think you are pretty spot on.

Matt

_________________
In the yards right now:
USS Utah AG-16
On Hold
1/350 USS Portland CA-33 1942
1/350 Trumpeter Texas with a twist

Photo in question for reference: http://www.navsource.org/archives/04/1203/04020305.jpg

If you size it to the deck fittings, the width of the tub appears to be the same as the capstans. If you compare to the plans that width is a hair skinnier than the bow quad tub. Certainly not the usual size discrepancy with twin and quad tubs but who knows. I was eyeballing my "measurements"

Anyone else care to venture an opinion?

I remember reading (Friedman) that they wanted to I think 4 twin 40mms to the class but the only location I ever remember them mentioning was near the stern. Never noticed those twin tubs forward of Mts 54 & 55 though; neat!

_________________
Drawing Board:
1/700 Whiff USS Leyte and escorts 1984
1/700 Whiff USN Modernized CAs 1984
1/700 Whiff ASW Showdown - FFs vs SSGN 1984

Slipway:
1/700 Whiff USN ASW Hunter Killer Group Dio 1984

I would have to double check my copy of Friedman's, but I thought the bow quad was mentioned along with the 4 twins. However, like you I have only found the twins on the main deck abeam the aircraft cranes. None of the stern 20MM positions have been replaced by twin 40MM. The bow tub is certainly for a quad mount. The reason it looks smaller is that it appears taller, which messes with the usual width/height comparisons for a tub. Unlike the quad at the extreme bow, which is open underneath to allow lines to be passed beneath it, the new tub aft of the capstans is solid all the way to the deck. Since the platform that the mount actually sits on is level (parallel to the waterline), and there is noticeable sheer on the deck, the after end of the tub platform is raised above the deck, and the space underneath has been filled in disguising that fact. As was mentioned, Hawaii would have had the simplified bridge structure at the base of the tower, and the flag-bag arrangements were somewhat modified. Also, don't fortget that had Hawaii commissioned, the remaining 20MM positions would probably all have been twin mounts.

The reference to the stern twins comes from the passage about modifying the ships by moving the aircraft from amidships aft. Said that if a single cat was placed aft it was force the removal of 2 of the "new twin 40s and 2 of the stern quads." Always thought they had planned to possibly replace the 20mm positions with said twins but I have no clue.

I agree completely with what you're saying about the size and perspective vs appearance issues.

_________________
Drawing Board:
1/700 Whiff USS Leyte and escorts 1984
1/700 Whiff USN Modernized CAs 1984
1/700 Whiff ASW Showdown - FFs vs SSGN 1984

Slipway:
1/700 Whiff USN ASW Hunter Killer Group Dio 1984

There is a rather large model of the Alaska, at the Oklahoma Science Center that I had my wife photograph for everyone. The thing is around 1/96 to 1/72 or so and I have no idea who built it. If I can get up there myself I'll get some without the flash a little more modeling oriented. One downsized sample and the lot as a 60mb zip.



http://www.jfreeland.net/images/alaska.zip

When was this photo taken?

I was able to photograph this model several years ago when she was out of her case in an area closed to the public. I even turned the turrets in broadside and took photos. they are held in with a piece of 3/8" dowel.
This model is in 1:48 (1/4"=1') scale and is 202" long! She was built in the pattern shops at New York Shipbuilding Corp at the same time they were building the real ships.

_________________
W.L. Upshaw
The Scale Shipyard

World's Largest Supplier of Large Scale Warship Hulls and Fittings
http://www.scaleshipyard.com

Impressive stuff... wonder why that model is at the Oklahoma Science Center, of all places...?

I noticed no other 40mm twin locations during my (admittedly brief) study of the photos of CB-3, but it's entirely possible I overlooked them entirely. The only reason I even chose to draw a "what if" version of the ship was to experiment with locations for the late-war electronics fit. Was also interesting to draw the new bow 40mm quad location. Anyway, updated AA fit never crossed my mind except what was mentioned in Friedman (the bow mount only, I think).

The USS Alaska CB-1 hull joined the Scale Shipyard's Task Force 96 Fleet this week. She is shown with the USS Missouri BB-63. and my USS New Jersey BB-62. all of these models are in 1:96 scale.

_________________
W.L. Upshaw
The Scale Shipyard

World's Largest Supplier of Large Scale Warship Hulls and Fittings
http://www.scaleshipyard.com

The photos were taken on 12/22/14.