The Ship Model Forum

Hi folks, my name is Doug and I am a Modelaholic.

Back to plastic after a 35+ year hiatus. The interim was R/C Scale and R/C Giant Scale Aerobatics. Started off in Stand-off scale back in the 70s-80s . . did some ~very~ nice Luftwaffe fighters, competed in the Nationals. Then got into the Giant Scale scene, did some design/manufacturing work, produced a line of 30% and 35% scale kits of world class aerobatic aircraft . . . made the mistake of turning a passion into a business. Burnt out big time. Now at 61 I could live the rest of my life without ever seeing another R/C aircraft . .

I got interested in the USS Luce when my Uncle, John (Jack) Charles Lake passed away in the 90s. I new he served on a ship that was sunk, but knew none of the details because he never talked much about his WWII experience. When he passed I read in his obit that he was a survivor of the 4th May 1945 sinking of the USS Luce . . so began a long journey to learn everything I could about Him, and the Luce, and the Pacific Navy war he was part of.

About 4 years ago I saw the Lindberg kit in the LHS. Went home and did some research . . did not like what I read about it . . went back to the LHS and ordered the Revell Germany 1/144 kit. Then I realized (Because of my research here) that it was gonna be a challenge to represent DD-522 using this kit. I like large scale . . when I did plastic model aircraft way back when I worked exclusively in 1/24 and 1/38 scale . . so the other Fletcher kits were out of the question.

Anyway, I have spent alot of time over the last several years researching this project. I ordered the Nautilus PE and resin goodies for this build. Ordered Model Masters enamels in the colors I need, ordered a new Iwata airbrush (can't find my Paasche I bought back in the 70's :/ ). I am used to working with enamels on plastic, I ordered the Model Masters brand because I could not source the WEM Colourcoats enamels I needed from US suppliers.

I recently ordered another Revell Germany Fletcher from 1001 Modelkits in Europe . . it was 1/2 the price of the ones on Ebay here on this continent. Apparently this kit is rather scarce right now. Hopefully Revell does another run . . and if they are smart, they will re-tool to provide a Square Bridge version also . .

Why another one? Because I just found out, Thanks to Rick e. Davis, that the Luce was repainted in 1945 in MS 21 over the MS 32/18D "Dazzle" scheme she had received in Aug 1944 in SF. All the research I did . . and Rick overturned my Apple Cart . .

So I will do two, the first one as she was in Aug 1944 in the "Dazzle" scheme . . nice, shiny, sexy, and new. And then one in weathered MS 21 as she appeared when she was sunk.

Here she is in the Measure 31/18D . .





And this is the photo Rick posted a few days ago that overturned my Applecart . . LOL!



It is apparent that the crew has been painting 5N over the "Dazzle" colors. But there is alot more to cover . . note the #1 and #2 5" guns are still in 5O and 5L . . .

If anyone has any photos of the Luce from 1945, please share them

In my next post I will post some photos of my work in progress.

Thanks for reading!!

_________________
On the Ways;

USS Luce DD-522 in MS 32/18D, Revell 1/144
USS Luce DD-522 in MS 21 (1945), Revell 1/144

In the Future;

USS Luce DD-522, 1/72 Scratch Build
LSM(R)-190 Modded from Revell 1/144 LSM (landing Ship Medium) Kit

Just this link to one photo at DestroyerHistory.org. Year uncertain, possibly before 1945 since she does not have the late-war AA fit (if she was refit).



Looking forward to your build!

_________________
Have fun, Monkey around.™

-Steve L.

Complete catalog: - https://www.model-monkey.com/
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Thanks ModelMonkey . . like so many of these ships, there are not alot of photos of some of them online. The Luce did get the bridge modded for two 40mm twin mounts when she was in SF in summer 1944. She had 5x40mm (twins) and I believe 7x20mm. You can clearly see the 40mm in front of the bridge in this photo (scanned by Rick Davis . . Thanks Rick!!) . .



I will be posting some pics of the start of my build today (I hope). I have the hull halves joined, and the basic assembly of the deck houses done. Also am modding the forward deck house for the 40mm gun tubs . . I will be scratchbuilding those.

Stay tuned!!

_________________
On the Ways;

USS Luce DD-522 in MS 32/18D, Revell 1/144
USS Luce DD-522 in MS 21 (1945), Revell 1/144

In the Future;

USS Luce DD-522, 1/72 Scratch Build
LSM(R)-190 Modded from Revell 1/144 LSM (landing Ship Medium) Kit

WooHoo!! ~Homer Simpson style . . ~

The mail just arrived with all my Nautilus Models goodies, PE, resin whaleboats, 5" turrets and Square Bridge conversion . . first glance looks OK, I will post a review here.

BTW, can someone point me towards a good tutorial for working with PE?? Thanks.

_________________
On the Ways;

USS Luce DD-522 in MS 32/18D, Revell 1/144
USS Luce DD-522 in MS 21 (1945), Revell 1/144

In the Future;

USS Luce DD-522, 1/72 Scratch Build
LSM(R)-190 Modded from Revell 1/144 LSM (landing Ship Medium) Kit

best thing sharp knife and a cutting matt .. otherwise a google search comes up with some ..

thomas

where did you get the 1/72 nautilus models from any link ?

Thanks Thomas. I will check out the Google Search for working with PE.

The 1/72 Scale Fletcher will be a Scratch Build . . either using the 1/72 fiberglass hull from Hartman Model Boats:

http://www.hartmanmodelboats.com/

. . . or I will scratch build the hull also . .

_________________
On the Ways;

USS Luce DD-522 in MS 32/18D, Revell 1/144
USS Luce DD-522 in MS 21 (1945), Revell 1/144

In the Future;

USS Luce DD-522, 1/72 Scratch Build
LSM(R)-190 Modded from Revell 1/144 LSM (landing Ship Medium) Kit

hi mate wheres they`re fletcher hull on the site ?..

thomas

Thomas, I emailed them asking about a large scale (1/48-1/72) scale Fletcher Hull. Don responded the same day that they just acquired the mold for a 1/72 hull and possibly deck also. Production would be starting up soon. Send them an email . . .

_________________
On the Ways;

USS Luce DD-522 in MS 32/18D, Revell 1/144
USS Luce DD-522 in MS 21 (1945), Revell 1/144

In the Future;

USS Luce DD-522, 1/72 Scratch Build
LSM(R)-190 Modded from Revell 1/144 LSM (landing Ship Medium) Kit

OK, I had a pretty productive day . . it never got above 10 degrees F today here in Central New Yorkistan . . good day to spend inside, tending the wood stove and working on a Model Warship while enjoying a glass of my favorite wine . . w00t!

Filled the seams on the drive shaft tunnels with Squadron White Putty . . good schtuph that . . gets the LoB two thumbs up . .



That brass tube you see sticking out of the hull is how I am mounting her to the base . . I spent an hour or so in the local Hobby Lobby Craft store and picked up a nice wood base and a package of 4 small wooden spindles, then stopped at my LHS and got two pieces of brass tubing . . the smaller fit tight over the end of the wooden spindle, the second brass tube was a slip fit over the smaller brass tube. Hopefully this pics will not need a lot of explanation . . . If not, please ask .



These photos show the two pieces of larger tube installed in the hull . . there is a smaller, slip fit tube glued to each of the two wooden spindles mounted to the base.

Front base mount tube . .


Rear base mount tube . .


Larger view, both base mount tubes . .


Now, at this time I would like to describe a technique used in the R/C Aircraft Community to qwik-cure and fillet a very strong bond using CA (Cyanoacrylate Adhesives) more commonly known as Super Glue. There are two ways to do this, both have their advantages. In this case I used a medium viscosity CA. After fitting the larger brass tubes in the hull (a snug fit to ensure alignment between the front and rear tubes) , using a wooden craft stick from Hobby Lobby (imagine a flat tapered tooth pick at 4x scale) I applied a small bead of Medium or Thick CA around the tube on the inside of the hull (at the bottom) and a small amount at the top where it meets the top of the bulkhead. Then a small amount of common Baking Soda (NOT Baking Powder . . two different compounds) is sprinkled onto the CA joint . . I put a small amount on the end of the wooden craft stick (about 1/8" wide) and then just dump it on the CA . . do one joint at a time . . . The Baking Soda cures the CA instantly . . then just blow the excess Baking Soda away . . result is a very strong joint, very fast, and a fillet. Note that I sanded the brass for the CA to bite, the CA will bite the plastic during the time it takes to accomplish this.

The other technique applies the Baking Soda first, then the application of THIN CA . . . The end result is the same but the thin CA tends to get on surfaces and in places you would rather it stayed away from and out of .

Next step will be to use JB Weld to really lock down those tubes installed in the hull. I need to run a test to see how it bonds to Styrene. If it does not bond well to styrene I will fall back to Plan B . . not sure what Plan B is yet . .

Stay Tuned and Thanks for Watching!!!

LoB signs off saying: "Peace, Out" \ /

_________________
On the Ways;

USS Luce DD-522 in MS 32/18D, Revell 1/144
USS Luce DD-522 in MS 21 (1945), Revell 1/144

In the Future;

USS Luce DD-522, 1/72 Scratch Build
LSM(R)-190 Modded from Revell 1/144 LSM (landing Ship Medium) Kit

looking good doug..

did email them no reply...

Yesterday (Monday) I started work on the Nautilus cast resin Square Bridge Conversion kit . . . First impression was . . Not Bad, but will require a bit of remedial action to make it up to my standards. I will cover those issues and the corrective actin taken in a later post.

Here are a few pics of the cast resin parts:





And there was included two Torpedo Directors and one Pelaurus . . .



I had heard some not-so-encouraging reports on the Nautilus 1/144 Fletcher Square Bridge Conversion Kit so I was a bit apprehensive about this kit . . now that I have had a chance to examine it and see how true it is to scale and how well it interfaces with the Revell 1/144 kit . . . I give it a 7-8 out of 10. The problems I see and the effort to resolve them are well within acceptable limits for me . . those of you who want it to be perfect . . move along, nothing to see here. The effort to correct minor issues is wayyy less than the effort to scratch build these same parts. AND . . I could not scratch build these parts as crisp as these are.

I will discuss the issues and how I resolved them in my next post.

_________________
On the Ways;

USS Luce DD-522 in MS 32/18D, Revell 1/144
USS Luce DD-522 in MS 21 (1945), Revell 1/144

In the Future;

USS Luce DD-522, 1/72 Scratch Build
LSM(R)-190 Modded from Revell 1/144 LSM (landing Ship Medium) Kit

Tap . .Tap . . Tap . . is this thing on? Anyone there?

Well, I am back after a long hiatus . . I generally only build in the cold months. I retired this year, not voluntarily though thanks to the smoke and mirrors Obama economy :/

Started back on the 1/144 Revell build of the Luce this week . . added the prop shafts to the hull will be beginning to paint the hull in it's Measure 32/18D Dazzle pattern. Which brings me to this: Rick Davis posted an image that is purportedly of the Luce in Feb? 1945 . . After researching Measure 32/18D I am not convinced that it is, unless someone can post an explanation for what I am seeing.

First, this is the image that Rick Davis supplied *Thanks Rick!!) . . . This shows a Fletcher in transition from "Dazzle" to late Pacific War Dark Blue.



And this is another image of Luce in 43/18D . .



And this is the Fletcher Class Measure 32/18D Pattern Sheet . .



Note the discrepancies in the paint scheme on #1 and #2 five inch guns and deck house on the top pic with the pic of the Luce and the pattern sheet.

Any Ideas?

_________________
On the Ways;

USS Luce DD-522 in MS 32/18D, Revell 1/144
USS Luce DD-522 in MS 21 (1945), Revell 1/144

In the Future;

USS Luce DD-522, 1/72 Scratch Build
LSM(R)-190 Modded from Revell 1/144 LSM (landing Ship Medium) Kit

USS LUCE (DD-522) appears to have been painted into dazzle post an overhaul in August 1944.

The directive to paint out of dazzle to Ms 21 or Ms 22 was in December 1944. This change could be noticed at the West Coast yards as ships arrived and left from overhauls. Destroyers in the forward area were instructed to "repaint" as operations allowed. From the photos I have seen, painting out of dazzle began in ernest in late February 1945 after the Iwo Jima Invasion, with many destroyers being repainted during downtime in March before the Okinawa Invasion.

Destroyers sometimes had help repainting because of drydocking to do underwater work and got a good repaint job. However, for units repainted by the crew "over-the-side" with little surface prep, the adhesion of the new paint was not good. The resulting paint over darker and lighter paint, loss of paint, repaint/touch-up, all made for an ugly looking appearance. Also, some units did the repaint job in stages as downtime allowed.

I based the ID of the February 1945 photo on the configuration (floater net baskets, life raft, door and ladder locations, etc) and War Diary entries for units alongside USS YORKTOWN (CV-10) on that date. Actually two of us worked quite awhile on this one. Just as an example of what configuration details we looked at, here was the "working" image we used with labels on items crossed checked based on units with USS YORKTOWN on and about 27 February 1945. As you can see, some details are really pretty petty, but make a difference. Sometimes "easy" things can ID an unknown destroyer ... like the hull number on the ship's boat!!!



Pattern sheets were a "guide" and was not always an EXACT pattern as applied. Generally go by photos if you have them. Trying to figure out her pattern details from the first image isn't very helpful once things have been repainted and retouched.

Rick, thank you for your response! I absolutely want closure on this question of whether or not this is actually an image of Luce DD-522. And I defer to your expertise in this matter.

Luce was painted in Measure 32/18D during her overhaul at San Diego in August 1944.

It is apparent (to me) in this photo that #1 38mm is in Light Grey/Ocean Grey . .



And even more so in this image:



I was basing my argument on the ~photos~ I posted of Luce in Measure 32/18D. They show the #1 38mm gun in Light Grey/Ocean Grey . . and #2 38mm in Ocean Grey (on Starboard side). If you compare the Pattern Sheet I posted with the photographs of Luce in Measure 32/18D she is right on in that dazzle camo, almost as if she was the Measure 32 Poster Child .

Where is this "hull number on the ship's boat!" you reference??

Please (Specifically) tell me where I am incorrect on this point? Thanks

_________________
On the Ways;

USS Luce DD-522 in MS 32/18D, Revell 1/144
USS Luce DD-522 in MS 21 (1945), Revell 1/144

In the Future;

USS Luce DD-522, 1/72 Scratch Build
LSM(R)-190 Modded from Revell 1/144 LSM (landing Ship Medium) Kit

You miss understood my comment that I could have been made clearer on my part. When I said identifying an unidentified destroyer in a photo (I find many of these in the 80-G collection at NARA) is easy when the ship's boat has the destroyer's hull number painted on, I mean it in general, not in this case. In this case, the ship's boat isn't in view. I (we in this case) had to work from what can be see in the way of configuration items (as labeled on the marked up image) and the War Diary/Deck logs for USS YORKTOWN (CV-10).

For this destroyer we had an issue ... NONE of the destroyers assigned to the TF that escorted USS YORKTOWN on 27 February 1945 fit the configuration. I ended up doing a "Brute Force" search of FLETCHER class images in my collection and narrowed it down to USS KIMBERLY or USS LUCE, sister-ships built at Bethlehem-SI. We eliminated KIMBERLY because she was still painted in dazzle into April 1945.

I did a search of USS YORKTOWN's War Diary sometime after doing the "Brute Force" search and came up blank for USS LUCE being alongside USS YORKTOWN ON 27 FEBRUARY 1945. BUT, the 80-G dates are suspect and often wrong. Plus, sometimes carriers didn't catch ALL the destroyers that came alongside them during busy periods of OPS. I got off on other things and never got into USS LUCE's War Diary to see if she mentions going alongside USS YORKTOWN at ANY point in February-March timeframe. I'm pretty sure this is LUCE, but not at all sure that I have a firm date.

If you desire building the ship as she appeared in dazzle, a positive ID for this photo is unimportant. You have more than enough images for LUCE as she appeared in dazzle.

Thanks Rick! Here is the Luce War Diary for the last part of Feb, 1945. The original war diary from March - May 1945 were lost when the Luce was sunk. There is a reconstructed War Diary for that time but was done from memory by Captain J. W. Waterhouse. There is no mention of Yorktown in The Luce War Diary from Feb-May 1945.

According to Wikipedia, the USS Yorktown was conducting ops against Japan at the end of February. On Feb 26 she steamed for Ulithi Atoll, where she anchored on March 1. She remained there until March 14.

During this period of time (Feb 13-28) Luce was anchored at San Pedro Bay, Leyte for maintenance. There is a gap in the Luce records that I have from Feb 28 - March 24, 1945.

It is possible that the Luce was alongside the USS Yorktown sometime after March 14 . . I will check the Yorktown's War Diary on Fold3.com.

_________________
On the Ways;

USS Luce DD-522 in MS 32/18D, Revell 1/144
USS Luce DD-522 in MS 21 (1945), Revell 1/144

In the Future;

USS Luce DD-522, 1/72 Scratch Build
LSM(R)-190 Modded from Revell 1/144 LSM (landing Ship Medium) Kit

I have had a strong suspicion that this photo dates from March 1945 or even a bit later. The wear and tear on the paint job of the destroyer (likely USS LUCE) would seem to be more in-line with the service encountered by then and seen on other destroyers with more solid dated photos.

Thanks for the War Diary entry for February 1945. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that the downtime 16-28 February 1945 would have been a perfect time for "tasking" the crew to do some painting. I'm surprised that March and April 1945 War Diaries are NOT available. Ships turned in War Diary entries once a month so at least March SHOULD be available somewhere. On my next trip to NARA I'll check the records there. I'm not sure where "Fold3" gets their War Diary entries from. The War Diaries were microfilmed at some point, or at least some of them were, and those may be the ones that they uploaded. War Diaries were normally hand-written day-to-day and THEN a type-written version(s) were produced (some on standard size 8.5x11 paper and others on Deck Log size paper) at least by the beginning of the next month if not as they went along. Normally a given month's entry was dated on the 1st of the following month, and sent to the next higher command level. Higher commands used them to generate their unit War Diaries. NARA has both hand-written and/or typed War Diaries "paper" versions in their collection. They hand-written ones can be a chore to read ... unless all hand printed and not cursive. Some were even written in #2 pencil, talk about a mess to read.

Also, sometimes the Deck Logs provide more/additional info not found in the War Diaries.

Good info Rick! FWIW I did check the March 1945 War Diary of the USS Yorktown. Pretty much the only Ships mentioned by name were those in her own Task Group. On at least two occasions the War Diary mentioned "Numerous Destroyers alongside for "Mail and Personnel transfer" or something like that.

I am positive I have Luce deck logs on Hard Drive somewhere . . they are hand written mostly in pencil and can be difficult to decipher. I have been collecting data about the Luce for 10+ years. I will try to find them and will post relevant data here.

I will continue to research this. But FWIW, I highly doubt that this is the Luce based on the fact that the starboard side of #1 38mm gun is NOT Light Grey/Ocean Grey as can clearly be seen in the photos of Luce in Dazzle Camo. In your photo the starboard side of #1 38mm is either Ocean Grey or Light Grey . . not a combination with an upper left to lower right demarc.

Check also the raft in your photo and photos of Luce in Dazzle Camo . . in the photos of Luce in Dazzle the aft portion of the Raft is Dull Black and the forward portion of the raft is Light Grey.

Unless there was an interim order re: painting out the Dazzle before the order to Measure 21 . . . . ??

I will continue research . . Thanks again for your illuminating responses Rick . . BTW . . where can I order your Books on the Fletchers??

_________________
On the Ways;

USS Luce DD-522 in MS 32/18D, Revell 1/144
USS Luce DD-522 in MS 21 (1945), Revell 1/144

In the Future;

USS Luce DD-522, 1/72 Scratch Build
LSM(R)-190 Modded from Revell 1/144 LSM (landing Ship Medium) Kit

As I said, some destroyers painted out of dazzle in stages. Plus, even while in dazzle, several destroyers while "touching up" modified the pattern applied in the yard. A common change was to paint the whole side of a 5-in gun mount one color. Life rafts were repainted as well. Plus this isn't a great photo. The photo is largely over exposed and the areas that appear darker are in the shadow and the rest of the destroyer is generally exposed to a strong sun. Unless they applied an overall primer coat, which if the crew did the repainting by hand that was quite unlikely, the various shades underneath would bleed through changing the tone.

The frustrating part of going through the War Diary of the "large units" like USS YORKTOWN during intense operational periods, is that when multiple destroyers are coming alongside for various purposes, whoever is keeping notes can get lazy in noting which units did come alongside. In LUCE's DANFS entries, it says she was running escort to supply runs in February and to the end of March 1945. On 1 April she was assigned to Radar Picket duty and remained on that duty (likely off and on) until lost. If she retrieved one of YORKTOWN's air crews, she could have made a run to her to return them.

Try going into April 1945 of YORKTOWN's War Diary. YORKTOWN appears to have been making strikes on Okinawa from about 23 March until at least 7 April 1945 almost constantly. Returning a down crew would be a common exercise.

Without, more photos of LUCE, we may not ever know exactly what she looked like every month in 1944 into 1945 at the time of her loss. Very few of the destroyers have that kind of photographic coverage.

I'm still pretty certain the destroyer is USS LUCE by process of elimination. I went through ALL the photos of all Square-Bridge FLETCHERS and the only ones with those features I noted on the image, were the the early Bethlehem-SI built Square-Bridge units. ISHERWOOD was damaged at IWO JIMA while still in dazzle camo and went stateside for repairs. KIMBERLY was still in dazzle in April 1945. That left LUCE. In most of my IDs of unidentified FLETCHERS (and other destroyers), I look at the configuration as the highest discriminate. Camo and paint jobs in general don't remain constant, particularly during the transition period in early 1945.