The Ship Model Forum

Lovely work Jim. I've been procrastinating about boat covers in 1/350!!

Inspiring work as always. I am sorry I failed to find the Fine Waterline display to catch you again later on Saturday. I hope we can chat further again at another opportunity! I have been dry brushing railings this week

_________________
James Duff
Sovereign Hobbies Ltd
http://www.sovereignhobbies.co.uk

Current build:
HMS Imperial D09 1/350
http://www.shipmodels.info/mws_forum/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=167151

Beautiful boats Jim!

Mounting them in Blu Tack when hollowing them out is much more cleverer than holding them in your fingers, as I found out the hard way...

Thank you for words of encouragement !

I am STILL working on the boats...

I have whittled the selection of boats down to 15 x portside (including 2 to discard)
and 15 x starboard ( including 2 to discard)

trouble is by the time I had completed the 15 starboard boats my methods had become more refined

==> so I am now working back through the Portside boats... !

Meanwhile to make life harder-- Normandie 's boats were fitted with SCHAT skates...
???
I did not know what these were either--or how they might work

surprisingly few images online of this

I found a copy of the patent from 1935
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/2016838.html

and various descriptions in the patent ...

concise redacted version below



Uhu... -- I understood --but I could not immediately visualise the operation
even though the patent had the original drawings





until I found this most useful image ( a picture paints a thousand words ( or summat like it! )

aha !!


so the cutting edge tech Normandie had this new fangled idea ( 1935) fitted to all her boats



-both the main boats and the smaller ones nested inside...




with the covers fitted ( as on my model of the ship)

==> they look like this



so the inner skates are the one s fitted to the nested boat and they protrude through the covers

so all I have now to work out is....

how I can make ( and fit to the boats ) 108 identical Schat skates...

" I'll be back .... "

JB

_________________
....I buy them at three times the speed I build 'em.... will I live long enough to empty my stash...?
http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery ... index.html

IPMS UK SIG (special interest group) www.finewaterline.com

Wow, Jim. I had been studying Normandie for nearly 40 years, and I had never heard of SCHAT skates, nor of Normandie having them fitted to every boat.

_________________
Jean-Paul Binot

Had not seen the nested boats on the same davit, neither the scates. The scates make a lot of sense, given that lowering the boats from a heeling ship always has been a major issue. I gather for the nested boats the lower ones are let go first, but they most be lower first sufficiently to allow the people to board them. Or what is/was the procedure ?

_________________
Eberhard

Former chairman Arbeitskreis historischer Schiffbau e.V. (German Association for Shipbuilding History)

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JPB wrote.....

Unlike you I ahve only been inspecting this ship really closely for the last 5 years....
this ship continues to amaze and confound at the same time,
and that is not just the model....

weflack wrote:

..>> Or what is/was the procedure ?

I don't actually know.....

But hopefully the 2 x images below may give some clarity...

_________________
....I buy them at three times the speed I build 'em.... will I live long enough to empty my stash...?
http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery ... index.html

IPMS UK SIG (special interest group) www.finewaterline.com

' evening all!

Ha ! ...==> a part of me wishes I had not opened that potential can of worms of the 'Schat skates...!

but knowing they existed I could no longer ignore their presence-- but how to make-- 104 of them--many many more actuallyas the wastage rate would need many extras-- all identical.
custom Photo -etch would be the correct the answer--
except I was unwilling to wait 3-4 weeks

( as,.. during the 14 day (!!) Christmas break

-- I wanted to make a big push to get some major assemblies done. etc etc...

so here is what I came up with.
-- disclaimer --

this is only a great idea if you happen to have numerous WEM 1/350 Koening PE sets hanging round..... (!!)

I do have quite a few sets in stock

---as they have --- in my view still -- the finest 1/350 PE 2 and 3 bar and chain rails of all ...
( especially the over etched frets.. .)

( still available from the new WEM... => Toms modelworks )

On this fret there are quite a lot of torpedo net bailing davits...







with some careful cutting
( quite a few careful cuts actually!

they can be made to be useful -
and produce repeatable representations of the visible parts of the Schat skates in 1/700....




An early experiment on a discarded spare boat looked promising
I then made some checking marks on paper to ensure all my cuts would be identical, and devised using a N 9 scalpel blade
I could dig a small slot into the finished resin of the cover

( so as to carry a small reservoir of CA glue to ensure the butt join to the smaller protruding skates would not be too fragile)









On another discarded but further advanced boat the overall look was looking more pleasing after a splash of paint






so now I am cutting up a quite worthy quantity of brailing davits into large and small schat skate parts...
The fail rate on the cuts is around 20% - so I will be busy!

getting them on -- and aligned ----consistently -- is quite game...

reporting in soon.

JIM B

_________________
....I buy them at three times the speed I build 'em.... will I live long enough to empty my stash...?
http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery ... index.html

IPMS UK SIG (special interest group) www.finewaterline.com

Never give up! Never surrender!

_________________
Sean Nash, ACG (aircraft camo gestapo)

On the ways:
1/200 Trumpeter HMS Nelson
1/700 Tamiya USS Yorktown CV-5

In the stash:
1/35 Italiari PT-109
1/35 Tamiya "Pibber" Patrol Boat
1/350 Trumpeter USS Yorktown CV-10

Indeed. Normandie was indisputably the most amazing ship ever made. I am in awe of the intricacy and care that went into planning, designing and building every little detail of that masterpiece, a ship that was in many ways well ahead of its time, and that would still be very modern today (SOLAS regulations notwithstanding, of course).

I strongly recommend to google for pics of Father Roberto Pirrone's phenomenal cut-out Normandie model (currently on display on board Queen Mary in Long Beach, CA). The level of detail and accuracy in portraying the interior of our favorite liner is staggering. It also helps figure out how all those amazing rooms were situated, and how they interacted and blended into what must have been a fabulous passenger experience (at least in First Class).

In some close-ups, it is hard to believe that one is not looking at the real thing. And Father Pirrone did fit every lifeboat with Schat skates.

_________________
Jean-Paul Binot

Master Jim. You are constantly blowing my mind.

Bravo!

Man, talk about diligence and persistence. The work looks great, Jim.

Hi Jim

Your usual search for extra detailling and accuracy is driving you mad on this one!
Carry on my friend, don't give up!
The workmanship is excellent

And next year, there will be something from "My Yard" to be looked at, at Telford

Cheers
Rui

_________________
Ship Modelers of the World UNITE

@ Goodwood, Kursu, JPB, Dan Kaplan and Rui....

THANK you !!! for your encouragement,-- I certainly need it....
This ship -- and the model thereof....

with all her idiosyncrasies and new problems to overcome has really thwarted progress
at almost every stage, and it has also challenged my tenacity...

not just because making the stuff can be tricky-- but there is just so much of everything !!
( fortunately no AA.... !

making the Schat skates certainly took a while...(!)
the wastage rate of the multiple cuts in the brass PE approached
30-40 percent at times each time the blade edge went a bit blunt ....

http://www.shipmodels.info/mws_forum/download/file.php?id=123111&mode=view



( a useful by-product were the perfect and very small PE circles--these make useful block in 1/350 ...)



...getting the inner Schat skates ==> the ones that poke though the cover of the nested boat.... to;

A) ...actually adhere (as a basically butt-joint) in/on my knife- point cut slot...
challenged both my patience and vocabulary of swear words
B) Getting them to align to each other and to all the other boats...
same effect as above

But all ( tedious ! ) things have an end...





I now have 30 ( including 4 discards) usable boats - 15 per side with 4 x 'Schat' skates per boat(s)
and the edges of the canvas on each boat have been re-re-re-re=sharpened with pencil and paint...







The 2 x large motorboats fwd have had the sterns re-shaped, the superstructures raised slightly with brass and paper shims ,
a skeg of brass PE made in readiness for rudders ( I will make and fit these before installation to the ship- they hang freely_)
and the covers were the simulated more effectively with layers of white glue




I went round and round (!) ( excuse the pun ) again re-re-sharpening the drawn windows on the white part of the superstructure
( painting black on white and white on black, scrape /pare- repeat again and again until a reasonably satisfactory result was reached.

-The upper hull sides also had another 2 coats of thin white enamel wash to homogenise and lighten the area
after the dreadful bleeding of the Rotring pen....

The hull has now had 3 x light coats of thinned matt ENAMEL varnish-
- hopefully this will allow me to use my favoured acrylic water based Windsor & Newton artists matt varnish upon completion .

All the above and a fairly comprehensive clearing of the workbench over the Christmas break,
a new PC and screen for the model room-- a Christmas gift from Katrin- (!! )






With the the hull curing its varnish under glass in readiness to be mounted to the case base with my integral sea-scape made earlier this year

I treated myself to doing something more amusing and satisfying --- adding the previously templated and cut paper decks

( exactly one year ago.... arghh! ) (!!! )

viewtopic.php?f=59&t=168156&start=20#p751977

to the fwd bridge block structure .
It still all fits ! ( well it should really! )







I have thought this before....

--but I think " we" may have crested a wave and maybe there is a speck of light at the end of the tunnel...

we shall see!

anyhow all of the above .....==> sort of brings us up to date !
More soon I hope

JB

PS..._ I have made a start on the passengers and crew -- 3 D prints

more about that later..(! )

_________________
....I buy them at three times the speed I build 'em.... will I live long enough to empty my stash...?
http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery ... index.html

IPMS UK SIG (special interest group) www.finewaterline.com

since my last update....
what difference 10 short days can make...

So far so good !

the ship is now " afloat " , screwed to its base with long screws on large penny washers
to prevent sinkage into the wood of the base




and the upper -lets call it the' funnel deck structure ' ( pre-constructed earlier last year )
has been installed and screwed to the decks ( into wooden backing pieces for the screws to REALLY grip!
( the lifting margin and the paper deck have been tacked down since !




It is of course perfectly possible when building model ships to get overly obsessed about the minutia
...==> ( EJ Foeth ...(!!) -- are you listening!

The " zig zag seating deck " had a splendid set of elegant steps, descending in a fan shape

... a beautiful, generous art deco feature ( especially when shot with a wide angle lens.... !! )




now in 1/700 these steps are very slim ad thin indeed


alas the resin kit part did not reflect this in either the shape or delicacy of steps

I did valiantly start making these steps using thin paper and brass
but imprecision on my part rendered these not to my liking either

so more 3-D printing...







in 1/700 the steps are gossamer thin-- and about the right shape

interestingly although the " 3-D print " steps LOOK pronounced--

they are very very smooth-- I was unable to detect them by feel

This also needed a paper wood deck-- so more pattern making






as did the deck ahead of the bridge-- ( a change of plan..! )





in between I prepared further deck edge drain pieces ( actually capping rail )
to line the deck edges with



Another paper deck patterns was made for the stern deck

so as to be able to seal the aft mooring deck.

although that deck in 1/700 is in effect in total darkness...

should the light ever allow one to look in that closely (!!! ) I added some parts...



at last-- " the lid went on " ...





The swimming pool ' podium' had a pronounced sharp edge




the casting did not really reflect this





I found some suitable size and suitably thin ( 3 thou ) brass PE fret strip ( WEM Koenig PE waste)
and bent it round in-situ ( note to self ==> plan ahead next time ... do it before paint etc )



The tiny gaps have been filled since ( white glue, paint and levelled)

whilst enjoying bending small pieces of metal....
I went back to the bridge block,

The bridge wings had pronounced wind deflectors


I did not want them to appear to intrusive to the eye ( 1/700 shadow is less than 1/1 shadow....)
so reduced their incline by half





so as to have continuous decking I had previously removed the wind break on the bridge roof and al the other ' lumps'

time to make a new sharper and thinner windbreak!



I was all going quite well, so prior to adding more detail to the bridge block
I offered it up (again ..-- for I had this all testfitted )
to the hull and funnel deck...

maybe it was all going too well

arghhhh !!!-- no fit




more soon

JB

_________________
....I buy them at three times the speed I build 'em.... will I live long enough to empty my stash...?
http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery ... index.html

IPMS UK SIG (special interest group) www.finewaterline.com

The stairs look very well - for me it would have been the subject of my newly discovered laser-cutting technique. I may have missed this, but do you do the 3D-printing in-house ? I gather it is a liquid resin UV-curing printer ?

_________________
Eberhard

Former chairman Arbeitskreis historischer Schiffbau e.V. (German Association for Shipbuilding History)

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Mind-blowingly impressive work and dedication throughout. Comparing the kit parts to the JB version amply demonstrates the scale of work needed and the marked improvement gained.

_________________
AKA "Doc Bear" (a bear of very little brain ...)
VMF'06 - German Gamblers
Veritable Modelling Friends 2006, Germany

This from the 1939 voyage. I wonder when they painted these things brown.

they would have done that some time after the refit;
I have seen images of post refit with white boats and others where the boats seem orange...

some easy ways of ID Normandie as built pre versus post refit ( winter 1936 )

1935 to late 1936 pre-refit:
==> there was no white line 'tween black and red on hull, bridge wings were swep back ( elegantly! )
large Illuminated Nomandie lettering on sports deck , twin whistles on fwd funnel , completely uncluttered sports deck
zig zag screened seating aft with swept steps ( as per posting above)
life-raft stacks adjacent to funnels were white

post-refit 1936 - 1939

they added the huge deck saloon aft ( and later still the ( quite cool !) covered roof over the first class suites )
tennis courts and sheltered seating on sports deck , removal of the illuminated NoRmandie sign
adding a white dividing line twixt black and red, ( much) enlarged bridge wings ,
and interestingly-- red (covered ?) life-raft stacks
( presumable so that they blend in against the funnels when viewed side-on


Equally interestingly...--the Schat skates for the nested boats remained white

even more interesting-- I only found this today

some candid home video revealing a lot of useful detail ( deck winches on foredeck!! )-- of pre and post refit

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PhYQgoOPm3o

JB

_________________
....I buy them at three times the speed I build 'em.... will I live long enough to empty my stash...?
http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery ... index.html

IPMS UK SIG (special interest group) www.finewaterline.com

Most probably yes. About the lifeboat color, They were painted the high visibility orange in April 1939, when the perspective of war already loomed in the horizon.

In fact, in the image I showed from the August 1939 voyage, they are painted orange.

Thank you for the video link.

And after watching it. Hope you have plenty of up to fashion young women to populate your Normandie.

And... I'm looking forward for your next updates.

so.... the "arghh !!! " moment of retro-chiselling away recalcitrant resin on a half complete model
to allow the bridge to ' sit' sweetly took its merry time and burnt nerves

but

all is well that ends well...
it sits nicely and with weight placed upon to allow the epoxy to set it ok now...

( small anvils ! )



so all was good and well until we had a REALLY cold weather week ( for UK ) and the heating in the moddelroom was off overnight...

resulting in the area where the bench( near the window ) was having the temperature collapse down to just 4 degrees Centigrade when I entered in the morning!!!!

I was revisited by my arch nemesis-- the thermo coefficients of expansion/ CONTRACTION-of differing materials







after some proper " huffing and puffing" ....!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I parted the flexible glue joint right up to the turn to the foredeck ,( ports and starbord )
cleaned up the residue thereunder and on the inside and undersides of the promenade deck overlays, had a think...

and re-glued both extreme aft ends ( and pinned them with stainless steel ( PE ) ' rivets' in holes in the resin casting)
with the temperature down at 10 degrees . but left the midships parts unglued and ' floating '



To prevent future contraction issues ... ( and I am looking for permanence...)

I have recognised that I need to be able to temperature-control the model on/ in its glass case

an inexpensive to run solution is a Reptile vivarium heater hooked up to a thermostatic control )







the heater pad sits in the recess under the base of the model



It now kicks in if the local/ model temperature falls below 17 degrees--
keeping it constant and inhibiting contraction = no movement.

the heater is a 7 w pad-- so not expensive.

Katrin asked me the other day( as it wa forecast to be a chilly day....

" ....have you plugged in your ship .... "

not many people hear that!!!


that damage limitation exercise consumed nearly 6 days... !

more 'proper' modelling update shortly

_________________
....I buy them at three times the speed I build 'em.... will I live long enough to empty my stash...?
http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery ... index.html

IPMS UK SIG (special interest group) www.finewaterline.com