Calling all Fletcher-class (DD-445) fans

Rick E Davis · Post by **Rick E Davis** » Fri Jun 30, 2006 9:07 pm

I'm NO Camo EXPERT ... but I have noticed quite a bit of what appears to have been ... "We can't make up our mind" ... paint schemes on Fletcher's early in their careers. The referenced photos here show her at the builder's and she has a different Ms-12mod scheme after delivery and was repainted in a Ms-18 scheme shortly before leaving the East Coast for the Pacific. I have come across photos of Bath built Fletcher's in Ms-12mod or 18 at the builder and then in Ms-22 and others that were painted in Ms-22 and then repainted in Ms-18 ... IF ... big IF ... the dates are right. I don't know what was going on and I don't know where the records would be on the Camo "plans" for this class in mid to late 1942. I have noticed that all of the Fletcher's that went to the North Africa invasion (mostly as convoy escorts) were painted in Ms-22 in October-November 1942.

Ron Smith · Post by **Ron Smith** » Fri Jun 30, 2006 9:11 pm

Rick E Davis wrote: ... IF ... big IF ... the dates are right.

Actually no IF to it when you see the kind of dates like on the photos. That's typical of RG-19 and those photos were legal contract documents, that's why the date is written like that on the negative, it can't be altered without it showing.

Rick E Davis · Post by **Rick E Davis** » Fri Jun 30, 2006 9:25 pm

Ron ... my IF is referencing to other Fletcher class photos that I have found at the USNI that have dates written on the back of the print and I don't have high confidence in the sequence of the shots. Not to your post ... we all are posting on top of each other at about the same time.

I forgot to reference this photo from Destroyer History Org's site in my last post that shows the other side of the ship after delivery ... 7 July 1942 ... http://www.destroyerhistory.org/fletche ... non_0.html ... I'm no expert but the patterns don't look the same in these two photos. Other photos of the O'Bannon running trials seem to match the pattern shown being applied at the builder's.

The O'Bannon's sister Nicholas was painted in Ms-18 before going to the Pacific ... http://www.destroyerhistory.org/fletche ... dex_1.html ... dated 15 August 1942. I have wondered if the O'Bannon was also painted in this pattern before going to the Pacific??

Ron Smith · Post by **Ron Smith** » Sat Jul 01, 2006 2:19 am

Rick E Davis wrote:Ron ... my IF is referencing to other Fletcher class photos that I have found at the USNI that have dates written on the back of the print and I don't have high confidence in the sequence of the shots. Not to your post ... we all are posting on top of each other at about the same time.

Yeah, we did cross trons there. I'd have to see the USNI prints, I've seen enough of what you're talking about to maybe take an educated guess if you can trust the dates.

I forgot to reference this photo from Destroyer History Org's site in my last post that shows the other side of the ship after delivery ... 7 July 1942 ... http://www.destroyerhistory.org/fletche ... non_0.html ... I'm no expert but the patterns don't look the same in these two photos. Other photos of the O'Bannon running trials seem to match the pattern shown being applied at the builder's.

She wouldn't be the first ship in that time frame to get two Ms12 mod schemes. Hobson, Plunkett, Atlanta, Juneau off the top of my head and I know there are others, I'm just being lazy tonight. For mid-1941 through mid-1942 you find some really weird schemes as they experiment.

The O'Bannon's sister Nicholas was painted in Ms-18 before going to the Pacific ... http://www.destroyerhistory.org/fletche ... dex_1.html ... dated 15 August 1942. I have wondered if the O'Bannon was also painted in this pattern before going to the Pacific??

Um, that's true Ms12 as defined by SHIPS-2 of September 1941, it specifies that exact pattern for DD's 445 through 451 among others.

DIBBER27 · Post by **DIBBER27** » Fri Jul 07, 2006 6:52 pm

Ron
I have a camo refrence book but i don't see MS18 listed. What is that? Do you think the O'Bannon was in the same camo as the Nicholas was in August 42. Some of the photos look more like MS21.

Bob

Post by **Cadman** » Fri Jul 07, 2006 11:09 pm

MS-12 is possible, but the drydock photo's taken after the Nov. 13th 1942 battles look like MS-21. No sign of any other color except 5-N in the photo's.

Looks like I have to do another O'Bannon as mine is painted MS-12 mod.

DIBBER27 · Post by **DIBBER27** » Fri Jul 07, 2006 11:51 pm

Cadman
In the drydock photo the turret looks lighter than the hull. Thats why I was hoping for MS12. The photos of the Nicholas before she went to the pacific look like MS12. MS21 is to dark and hides the detail.

Ron Smith · Post by **Ron Smith** » Sat Jul 08, 2006 12:55 pm

DIBBER27 wrote:Ron
I have a camo refrence book but i don't see MS18 listed. What is that? Do you think the O'Bannon was in the same camo as the Nicholas was in August 42. Some of the photos look more like MS21.
Bob

Measure 18 is rarely listed or described in books. It looks like a cross between Measure 12 and 22. Ms18 usually has an all 5-N hull but some ships were painted with a break to 5-H similar to the original Ms12 that followed the sheer line. The difference between Ms12 and Ms18 is Ms12 called for 5-N hull (sometimes with 5-O above the lowest point of the main deck that follows the sheer line), 5-O superstructure and then 5-H above the top of the dierctor; Ms18 is only 5-N and 5-H. Photos that look like Ms22 but have the break to 5-H follow the sheer are Ms18.

On June 21, 1942 O'Bannon paints from Ms12mod to either Ms12 or Ms18. The photos attached to the damage report of her action 11/13/1942 show her to be in Ms21. The condition of the paint looks like she's worn Ms21 for a few months so it's possible she was in Ms21 during August. Tim is correct that there no other camouflage colors apparent in the photos.

Ron Smith · Post by **Ron Smith** » Sat Jul 08, 2006 1:09 pm

DIBBER27 wrote:Cadman
In the drydock photo the turret looks lighter than the hull. Thats why I was hoping for MS12. The photos of the Nicholas before she went to the pacific look like MS12. MS21 is to dark and hides the detail.

In the photos Tim and I mentioned you can't see any turrets. To my knowledge these photos are not on the web or in any books. You have to watch 5-N, after a couple of months it starts to oxidize and chalk....once that starts any angled surface appears lighter than it should depending on light angle. After 3 or 4 months in the south Pacific 5-N looks almost like 5-O except the 5-N shows much worse streaking and chalking.

None of the blues (sapphire blue, 5-S and 5-N) weathered very well. Sapphire blue chalked within a few weeks, 5-S was too light and chalked after anout a month. 5-N was dark enough when first applied but chalked after about 3 months.

Rick E Davis · Post by **Rick E Davis** » Sat Jul 08, 2006 3:40 pm

I found out about Ms-18 when I asked a question at Shipcamouflage website about the photo (actually a whole series of photos) of the Nicholas taken on 15 August 1942, which was only a little over a week before she departed the East Coast for the PAC. I was kindly told that it was Ms-18 and when I asked what that was, I was pointed to Alan Raven's article that he published years ago and that has been posted on the Shipcamouflage website ... the specific page where Ms-18 is talked about is ... http://www.shipcamouflage.com/5_6.htm ... I never knew that this "paint job" was official. I went back through my photo collection, check of Web sources and did a quick survey of USNI Photo Library and found several Fletcher's with the Ms-18 scheme, mostly Bath Iron Works built ships. A very quick and dirty list of what I have found so far

DD-449 Nicholas 15 August 1942
DD-466 Waller approx. January 1943 in the PAC (this is interesting in that a 30 Nov 1942 photo on the East Coast shows her painted in Ms-22)
DD-467 Strong un-dated photo that appears to be at the builder's?
DD-468 Taylor 27 August 1942 (taken at Bath ... she comm on 28 Aug) and by 13 Sep 1942 she was in Ms-22
DD-469 DeHaven 28 June 1942 at time of Launching
DD-507 Conway undated but she still only had 6-20mm ... in a photo dated 24 Oct 1942 she was in Ms-22 and in a photo dated 13 August 1943 she is in Ms-18 and how has 7-20mm guns.

Please, this is not to be taken as THE complete list of Ms-18 camo Fletcher's and some of these dates are suspect to me. I'm still looking.

Most if not all of these ended up in Ms-21 ... all of the DESRON-21 for sure ... once they were in the South Pacific. The Conway (DESRON-22) photo dated in August 1943 is a real interesting case if the date is accurate.

Post by **ModelMonkey** » Sat Jul 08, 2006 3:56 pm

The twin rudder question proves to be quite pesky. For example, more than one printed source indicated that the Fletcher I am modeling, DD-804, the Fletcher with the highest numbered hull was one of the few with twin rudders. But a former crewmember sent me photos of the ship in drydock clearly showing her single rudder. He even emailed me to state very emphatically that DD-804 had just one rudder which he personally scraped during a refit.

It would be very interesting to see photos of the twin-rudders on those that had them.

DIBBER27 · Post by **DIBBER27** » Sat Jul 08, 2006 6:42 pm

Ron Smith wrote:
DIBBER27 wrote:Cadman
In the drydock photo the turret looks lighter than the hull. Thats why I was hoping for MS12. The photos of the Nicholas before she went to the pacific look like MS12. MS21 is to dark and hides the detail.
In the photos Tim and I mentioned you can't see any turrets. To my knowledge these photos are not on the web or in any books. You have to watch 5-N, after a couple of months it starts to oxidize and chalk....once that starts any angled surface appears lighter than it should depending on light angle. After 3 or 4 months in the south Pacific 5-N looks almost like 5-O except the 5-N shows much worse streaking and chalking.

None of the blues (sapphire blue, 5-S and 5-N) weathered very well. Sapphire blue chalked within a few weeks, 5-S was too light and chalked after anout a month. 5-N was dark enough when first applied but chalked after about 3 months.

Ron is this one of the drydock photos you were talking about? On this one you can see the foward turret.
Also I just want to thank all of you guys for all your help. Also it shows my wife I'm not the only one this into ships.
http://www.destroyerhistory.org/fletche ... 31007.html

Ron Smith · Post by **Ron Smith** » Sat Jul 08, 2006 6:57 pm

DIBBER27 wrote:Ron is this one of the drydock photos you were talking about? On this one you can see the foward turret.
Also I just want to thank all of you guys for all your help. Also it shows my wife I'm not the only one this into ships. http://www.destroyerhistory.org/fletche ... 31007.html

No. I almost never discuss web-based photos for the simple reason that you have no idea what has been done to the image properties to get it on the web. What you're seeing there is reflection, look at the structure above and behind the turret. Get me a photo number and I'll dig out the original print.

DIBBER27 · Post by **DIBBER27** » Sat Jul 08, 2006 7:22 pm

Ron where would I find the number? I'm kind of leaning toward MS18 though.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Sat Jul 08, 2006 9:33 pm

DIBBER27 wrote:Ron where would I find the number? I'm kind of leaning toward MS18 though.

You'd have to see if their webmaster knows the source of the photos andif it's official Navy then it should have a number.

DIBBER27 · Post by **DIBBER27** » Sun Jul 09, 2006 3:08 pm

Just got back from the hobbystore to pick up some 5-O paint for the O'Bannon. Saw the squadron book on Fletchers. The art on the cover shows the O'Bannon against the battleship Hiei. It shows the O'Bannon in MS 12. I know this dosen't mean anything but it also shows the 3 20mm on the stern. The picture was done by Don Greer. I did a search for him but only found the work he doe's for the squadron books.Could the O'Bannon have been still in MS-12?

Ron Smith · Post by **Ron Smith** » Sun Jul 09, 2006 5:18 pm

DIBBER27 wrote:Just got back from the hobbystore to pick up some 5-O paint for the O'Bannon. Saw the squadron book on Fletchers. The art on the cover shows the O'Bannon against the battleship Hiei. It shows the O'Bannon in MS 12. I know this dosen't mean anything but it also shows the 3 20mm on the stern. The picture was done by Don Greer. I did a search for him but only found the work he doe's for the squadron books.Could the O'Bannon have been still in MS-12?

Not possible, she was in Ms21, photos of her damage sustained 11/13/1942 clearly show a single overall medium dark color that is weathered enough to have been on several months at least.

Now the question is why you'd get 5-O for an Ms21 scheme........

DIBBER27 · Post by **DIBBER27** » Sun Jul 09, 2006 5:43 pm

Not possible, she was in Ms21, photos of her damage sustained 11/13/1942 clearly show a single overall medium dark color that is weathered enough to have been on several months at least.

Now the question is why you'd get 5-O for an Ms21 scheme........

Ron I got the 5-O because I saw on shipcamoflage.com that she was in MS-14 after MS-12. Just wanted to be ready what ever color I went with.I did think it was intresting that the artwork on the cover showed the 3 20MM on the stern.

Rick E Davis · Post by **Rick E Davis** » Sun Jul 09, 2006 6:03 pm

Short answer is that the O'Bannon wasn't in Ms-12R for the November 1942 battle. The photos that Ron found of the O'Bannon being repaired right after the battle shows that she was painted in Ms-21. Highly unlikely that they would repaint her JUST to look pretty for the repair job. A reference (not clear on the source) on the destroyerhistory.org website said that she was repainted the first week of November 1942 (from what scheme??). From my experience with looking at Fletcher class photos, it is unlikely that any of them went to the Pacific still painted in Ms-12R. Only about the first nine Fletcher's commisioned (Nicholas, O'Bannon, Fletcher, Chevalier, Radford, Jenkins, Strong (? not sure on her ... Sept 42 yard photos look like she is having the Ms-12R painted out), Saufley and LaVallette) were painted in MS-12R at the time they were delivered. Most of these were repainted to Ms-22 and four (Chevalier, Jenkins, Strong, LaVallette ... plus the Taylor commissioned in Ms-22) went to serve as convoy guards for Operation Torch. The Nicholas, O'Bannon, and Fletcher (number 1, 2, and 3 in order of commission for this class) headed for the Pacific in late August and arrived in the South Pacific war zone in early October 1942. The Nicholas was repainted to Ms-18 before going to the Pacific. The Chevalier was painted in Ms-22 by 24 Oct 1942. The LaVallette was still in Ms-12R on 5 September 1942, but had been repainted to Ms-22 by 8 October 1942. The Fletcher and O'Bannon are the two units that are not clearly documented in photos as to what they were painted prior to going to the Pacific. The Fletcher had the second twin 40mm installed on her stern I think in early October (or it may have been late September?) and I suspect, but don't know for sure, was repainted to either Ms-18 or 22 (or maybe even Ms-21) while getting that mod done. The O'Bannon retained the 1.1" gun and went off to the Pacific after running trials, training and Convoy duty. She had several yard periods and could have been ... likely was ... repainted to the new/latest standards being called for at that time period.

DIBBER27 · Post by **DIBBER27** » Sun Jul 09, 2006 6:41 pm

MS-21 it is I have to get this done. I'm not geting any younger. Thanks for all the help.