Calling all Fletcher-class (DD-445) fans

[sandy]

Hi Roger,

http://www.navsource.org/archives/05/569.htm

Second photo (as opposed to drawing) down.

Hope that helps.

All the best
Sandy

[PeeJay]

OMG! Those are really incredible shots. Reminds me of being on the gunline on the USS Canberra (CAG-2, subsequently re-designated CA-70). We had to unrep every three days. I was ultimately privileged to be the Officer of the Deck during unreps and got to steer her when coming alongside an oiler or supply ship, while along side, and when breaking away. Had to give the helmsman orders in half degrees, and we had a few ace helmsmen that could handle that kind of steering. But I digress....

I agree about the direction finder. Looks like the ones I have seen on some fishing vessels with two round loops at 90 degrees to each other, but elongated in those photos. Some great detail thre. Thanks a million!

PeeJay

[Cliffy B]

What are those objects on the forward edges of the funnels near the top on DD-656? I'm guessing on the forward funnel is the ship's whistle and the after funnel is some sort of direction finding or ECM antennae. Am I close?

[PeeJay]

I had a chance to compare Roger's photos with some photos I had downloaded from the Destroyer Photo Index, found here: http://www.navsource.org/archives/05idx.htm and the Fletcher Class Portraits page of the Destroyer History website, found here: http://destroyerhistory.org/fletcherclass/portraits/

The Van Valkenburgh had the direction finder in the pictures in my file. I also found similar mounts on the aft stack of the Hart (DD-594) and the Metcalf (DD595), although the object on the Hart looks as if it may have been covered. I am posting those photos. It is interesting that this device was not common to more ships. The hart and Metcalf photos were taken in December 1944, and the Van Valkenburgh trained in Hawaiian waters in December 1944 before heading for the western Pacific and her first combat operations.

The direction finder was also missed in the "replica" offered by MotionModels.com.

The Van Valkenburgh photo also shows a dark round area on the exterior of the bulwark outside of the pilot house. There is a similar dark area on the photo of the starboard bridge area that Roger posted. I thought it might be a ships or squadron crest, but it appears as if it may be three dimensional in Roger's photo. I was also looking for possible victory markings, but a review of her history indicates that the photos alongside Nevada were taken before the Van Valkenburgh shot down any Japanese aircraft in May and June of 1945.

PeeJay

[sandy]

Hi,

I think the dark object on the bridge wing is a life-ring/belt.

All the best
Sandy

[Russ2146]

On the aft stack, you have Mk 51 directors port and stbd, matching the twin 40's below them. They look somewhat different because they are pointed in different directions to match the guns they direct. On the center line of that platform is what appears to be a Peloris/compass probably indicating that that is the secondary or emergency conning station.

As a rule of thumb, there is a fire director whenever you see a 40mm mount and the 40mm pointed in whichever direction the director was pointed.

The antenna is a DF loop

The forward stack has the ship's horn and whistle

The object on the bridge wing is a question. Never saw a flotation device like that.

[snaphappy321]

Hi,

I think the dark object on the bridge wing is a life-ring/belt.

All the best
Sandy

Hi Peejay,
I'll second what Sandy said. It is a life ring. Just about every square bridge and round bridge Fletcher has a life ring in that spot.

Sandy,
Thanks for finding the photo looking down from the Mk-37 on the USS Aulick DD-569!!!!!!!!!!!! That looks just like the Bennett. In fact if the guy in the Bennett's photo wasn't standing next to the bulwark on the MK-51 director we would probably see a ladder like DD-569 had.

Thanks Again,
Roger DD-473/DD-555

[snaphappy321]

Hi Russ2146 and PeeJay,
Take a look at the first page of my Bennett build at this link and scroll down until you see the WWII photos of the Bennett and you will see a life ring on the bulwark. All the Fletcher's had one on each side of the bridge.
viewtopic.php?f=59&t=102971

Roger DD-473/DD-555

[Rick E Davis]

PeeJay,

You beat me to it. I went through my image collection of FLETCHERS today and found the same thing ... VAN VALKENBURGH had the antenna on 7 August 1944 shortly after commissioning, while HART (DD-594) and METCALF had the antenna after completing at PSNY on 2 and 16 December 1944. However, I have another set of images of HART and METCALF taken in February 1945 and the antennas had been REMOVED!!!

As for the antenna, I'm still narrowing it down, but suspect that it belongs to the DAK/DAK-1/DAK-2/DAK-3 Radio Direction-Finder based on what I have found. Of the various DF systems in use during WWII, this is the only one I have found with "Crossed-Loop" antenna. DAK was used on cruisers and other larger warships. With only three FLETCHERs having the system, apparently it wasn't found to be successful for use on FLETCHERS.

At any rate ... the antenna is a rare animal on a FLETCHER.

The object on the bridge is a life-ring with additional "stuff" attached behind it.

[Russ2146]

Ok, with the enlargement, now the flotation device makes sense.
I wonder if the "stuff" is a lit marker buoy. In the early 60's they were cylinders that floated. They were stored upside down. When deployed they floated upright and the battery made contact and lit the flashing light. Didn't know they had them back then.

[Rick E Davis]

I looked at a few other close-up views on various FLETCHERS and I think this "fuzzy" view of VAN VALKENBURGH's bridge shows rope behind the life-ring, a common but NOT universal practice, plus a float/marker. Some FLETCHERS do seem to have what may be nothing more than a conventional float or marker (smoke maker?). It was kind of interesting to see the variation in how these life-rings were attached to the bridge. Some like this one on VAN VALKENBURGH, were installed spaced away from the bulwark (to make room for the rope?), while others were mounted direct to the bulwark. Some had a separate bracket for the float/marker.

[PeeJay]

Thank you all for clarifying the life ring/float/marker. It does make sense now, that with the float attached, I was seeing an irregular shadow.

After looking at the Kidd walkaround, I could also tell that any squadron insignia would not be located in that area, and the Kidd's kill marks are located on the outboard sides of the bridge wings, themselves, so if Van Valkenburgh ever did had any kill markings, I would now know where to put them.

I really appreciate how fast you jump on these issues as well. Roger, particular thanks for referral to the Bennett build. I can see that that it will not only provide information regarding the actual DD's, but is also a tutorial on accurate scratch building. I have bookmarked it for future access and study.

Guess I better start printing out my plan set pretty soon, because it well be the key to getting this project done right.

Thanks again, every one. Great information on that df antenna, by the way.

PeeJay

[PeeJay]

Having just said that I need to print out the plans, I went to print out some pages from the Sigsbee set at the Historic Naval Plans Site, and realized that the Sigsbeea was a round bridge Fletcher. But I also recalled seeing a reference to a plan set for a square bridge and tracked it down to the Abbott website, here: http://abbot.us/DD629/plans/grid.shtml?5541-2.

However, when I select any of the thumbnails on this, or the continuation page, I just get a blank web page. No error message, just a blank page with "go back" at the top and the links for the two thumbnail pages at the bottom. At first, I thought it might be because I am using Google Chrome for a browser, so I tried again in Internet Explorer with the same results. I also noticed that when I right click on a thumbnail, I do not get an option for "save target as.."

Do I need a special application program to be able to open the plans?

In the meantime, I can open the Sigsbee plan, and I have downloaded a number of drawing excerpts from this site showing variations of the square bridge. Also drawings in the discussion of the 20 mm gun tubs and stack platforms, as well as the low gun tub between the aft 5" mounts. Are the Sigsbee plans accurate for the deckhouse configuration and anything else I might need for the 656, a square bridge ship without the AA modification?

PeeJay

[Rick E Davis]

An option for you is to order a DVD of the Bath Iron Works (BIW) FLETCHER Class Engineering Drawings from the Destroyer History Organization ... http://destroyerhistory.org/destroyers/store/ ... for $30 you get plans for the four different variations of the FLETCHER class that BIW built.

1) Original group with the enclosed bridge (Round-bridge) with a single quad 1.1-in mount ... DD449-451
2) Enclosed bridge units with two twin 40-mm mounts, one on the fantail ... DD467-469 and 507-517
3) Initial revised open bridge units (Square-bridge) with three twin 40-mm mounts ... DD629-631 and 642-644 (really didn't last long on DD-644)
4) Ultimate revised open bridge units with altered bridge with five twin 40-mm mounts ... DD650-653 and 688-691 (the six units in the previous group above were updated to this standard)

These plans are the ones that BIW used to build the destroyers and much applies to all FLETCHERS. Any variations generally can be derived from the available photos or other drawings. The plans were scanned from the original drawings on microfilm at the National Archives by the founder of Destroyer History Org., Dave McComb at great expense on his part and at $30 it is a GREAT bargain. The plans take getting use to in finding what you need. Best to print out the index (on the DVD) and go through ALL of the 100's of drawings and note as you go what you want to reference later.

It is well worth the cost for the DVD. If you are serious about scratch-building it will be invaluable. Once you have narrowed down to a specific ship, I may have some additional drawing info available.

[PeeJay]

Thank you, Rick. The specific ship I have in mind is the Van Valkenburgh, as discussed in my earlier posts. I have already gained great insight from the five photos you posted earlier, and will probably not even know what further questions to ask until I have been able to compare my downloads of the Van Valkenburgh photos with some of the drawings.

Until I started studying the Kidd book a few weeks ago, I really was not aware of the differences in armament among the classes, so I am still fairly early on the learning curve.

Thnks again for all your contributions to this thread. I know for sure that I am not the only one who appreaciates them.

PeeJay

[sandy]

Sandy,
Thanks for finding the photo looking down from the Mk-37 on the USS Aulick DD-569!!!!!!!!!!!! That looks just like the Bennett. In fact if the guy in the Bennett's photo wasn't standing next to the bulwark on the MK-51 director we would probably see a ladder like DD-569 had.

Thanks Again,
Roger DD-473/DD-555

Hi Roger,

Not sure if you noticed in your photos of Bennett the unusual, if not unique, bridge front ladder?

All the best
Sandy

[snaphappy321]

Hi Sandy,
I can't wait to install that ladder on my build. I don't know if you have read the reason I chose the Bennett. My grand father worked at the BNY during WWII and he may have helped build her and who knows maybe he installed that ladder!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Roger DD-473/DD-555

[snaphappy321]

Hi Rick,
I have a question about the paint measure of the Bennett. When she was at Hunters Point December 1944 she was wearing measure 22. I remember you told me in 1945 all USN ships in the Pacific were to be painted measure 21. Do you have any idea when the Bennett might have been repainted to measure 21? Would it have been before the kamikaze hit her at Okinawa, or after she was repaired when she received the quad 40mm's?

I'm afraid that measure 21 is going to hide a lot of the detail of my build. I was thinking since the Bennett seemed to miss the action at the end of WWII because of being repaired maybe I would paint her as all UNS ships were after WWII ended.

Also, a guy I know is building the USS Johnston DD-557 in 1/96 scale and he's trying to find out if she was in measure 21 when sunk? He was looking at other ships in Taffy 3 to determine what her measure would have been. While ships were listed to be measure 21 the pictures of the Hoel and Samuel B Roberts show measure 31 dazzle within a month of the battle of Samar. Does anyone have a picture or source to solve this question?


Thanks Roger DD-473/DD-555

[Rick E Davis]

If I said that ALL destroyers were ordered painted in Ms 21 during 1945, I miss spoke. All Pacific destroyers were ordered repainted into Ms 21 in late October 1942. During late 1944 when the dazzle schemes were discontinued, the USN ordered that odd-even numbered DesRon's be painted in Ms 21 or 22. I forget which is which right now. I go by individual ship photos, because there was a lot of reassignments after all the kamikaze losses, so I don't trust going by DesRon assignments. So BENNETT likely retained her Ms 22 scheme until she was mothballed. It gets confusing, but postwar most destroyers were repainted into HAZE GRAY before going into mothballs. Meanwhile operational destroyers were painted in Ms 21, Ms 22, and peacetime Haze Gray.

Photos show that JOHNSON (DD-557) was painted in Ms 21 when she was lost.

[snaphappy321]

Hi Rick,
Thanks for the info!!!!!!!!!!!! I like Ms 22 it will bring out the Bennett's details more than Ms 21.

Roger DD-473/DD-555