Calling all King George V-class (WWII) fans

[Aidan]

EJ, great photo, I stand corrected re "Y" turret, however this photo looking forward over "B" turret shows 6 barrels visible so it must be an 8 barrel unit on "B" turret

[Luca Bevilacquaback]

Great photos thanks.

I may have wordedmy post incorrectly, but I was thnking of modelling PoW at the time of the Denmark Strait battle (manly to put her in a dio with the Hood).

It seems taht atking the ol Tamiya kit, adding the 2 WEM frets, not instlling the 7 tubes for 20 mm light AA, and replacing PomPoms with UP launchers (1 on B turret, 2 on Y) it should be ok.

In a way his puzzls me, possible that Tamiya made basically no error ?

I also have a KGV kit and sare from an old POW kit that would allow me to model a 1941 KGV, but was it identical to POW in thse days ?

If it was exactly identical, but may be for the paintwor (I still have to check) may be it would not be worh ading it to a Scapa May 1941 diorama...

thxto all you for the warm welcome I am really moved

[Aidan]

Hi Luca, for Denmarck straight, PoW indeed had 1 UP launcher on "B" turret and 2 on "Y" turret, she was painted AP 507b home fleet grey, no camo and bare wood decks. This photo was taken by a patroling Sunderland aircraft shortly after she set sail with Hood for the Denmark straight to intercept Bismarck so this is excactly how she looked on May 24th 1941.

[Mike W]

In response to Phil M's message re the HACS on Duke of York. HMS Duke of York was fitted with Mk V HACS and Anson/Howe Mk VI HACS. I am using Tamiya's Prince of Wales (1/700) along with WEM etch to make Duke of York. Steve Larsen kindly cast up some resin Mk V HACS for me and I had some spares made up. If your interested in having some please let me know.

thanks
Mike

[Tim Stoneman]

Mike W indicates that ANSON and HOWE had Mk VI HACS fitted. Most references say that both were completed with the same arrangements as DUKE OF YORK, namely Mk V HACS, but that ANSON was refitted with Mk VI during her 1944-45 refit. Photos of ANSON in the latter configuration are fairly common, but I've never seen one of HOWE with Mk VI directors. Post-war photos such as those at http://www.navyphotos.co.uk/howe5b.jpg and http://www.navyphotos.co.uk/howe4b.jpg appear to show Mk V directors.
Tim

[Mike W]

I was at work with no references at hand. It was 2 or 3 years ago I was speaking to Steve Larsen, so I was just thinking off the top of my head. Checking the Shipcraft book by Chesnau confirms only Anson was refitted with Mk VI HACS. I still have the cast resin Mk V's though in 1/700.

thanks
Mike

[GaryJ in NC]

I was at work with no references at hand. It was 2 or 3 years ago I was speaking to Steve Larsen, so I was just thinking off the top of my head. Checking the Shipcraft book by Chesnau confirms only Anson was refitted with Mk VI HACS. I still have the cast resin Mk V's though in 1/700.

thanks
Mike

Mike: I am extremely interested in acquiring any extra Mk. V HA/LA directors for DUKE OF YORK and HOWE in 1/700. Do you have any Mk. VI for ANSON?

I have always wanted to do the entire KGV class.

[GaryJ in NC]

Steve Larsen, please pick up the white courtesy phone.....

I recall that you created very nice conversion sets for the 1/350 KGV and PRINCE OF WALES kits to enable modelers to make the DUKE OF YORK, HOWE, and ANSON. Would you consider making these same items in 1/700? If so, I would would gladly commit to order them and I am sure that there are other 1/700 modelers who would place orders as well. Please advise.

[Mike W]

I asked Steve this at the time, as I wouldn't mind making Anson and Howe as well but Steve said he wouldn't but did make the Mk V HACS for me, for which I am very grateful. If he has changed his mind, I too would love the conversion sets for Anson and Howe in 1/700 but I won't push him on the matter. I don't have any Mk VI HACS at all. I will have to check how many sets of Mk V HACS I have.

Thanks
Mike

[Mike W]

Speaking of Duke of York, I remember from reading my shipcraft book that she wore a camou scheme similar to the USN's MS22 but obviously using Admiralty colours. I'm sure I read that the fore most part of the deck was left as natural wood but the rest was painted or stained. Can anyone confirm this or have any other info about this?

thanks
Mike

[Mike W]

I was referring to 1943 when she took part in the siinking of Scharnhorst.

thanks
Mike

[Luca Bevilacquaback]

Hi Luca, for Denmarck straight, PoW indeed had 1 UP launcher on "B" turret and 2 on "Y" turret, she was painted AP 507b home fleet grey, no camo and bare wood decks. This photo was taken by a patroling Sunderland aircraft shortly after she set sail with Hood for the Denmark straight to intercept Bismarck so this is excactly how she looked on May 24th 1941.[/attachment]

Thanks Aidan, I should have read more carefully, hence double thanks for the quick recap.
My time is much sonstrained unfortunately.

The Type 271 radar lantern that was fitted after the Bismarck chase should be Tamiya piece E9, if I get it correctly, but from tha photo it seems to me taht also its "base" (Tamiya piece E17) was not fitted yet.

This should be a difference with KGV and in the same days. KGV should have it + the degaussing cable + more wheatering (I suppose) in the same days.

[Aidan]

Hi Mike, at the time of the Scharnhorst sinking DoY was painted light grey AP507C on the superstructer and upper works, and mid grey AB507B on the hull, turret tops and walkways were dark grey, possibly AP507A. the wooden decks were bare. Howe, Ansen and Prince of Wales all wore US style camo, mainly during the mid war years but later reverted to the two tone grey scheme. The first photo was taken from an escorting ship as DoY was heading to intercept Scharnhorst some time on the 26th December, 43, the second shows Doy awaitng the arrival of HM King George VI when he visited the ship in August 43, (note the bare decks) after this visit, DoY resumed artic convoy duties and remained so until early 44. the third photo shows Monty onboard Doy (cant remember the date but again notice the bare decks), and the forth photo is Howe in her US style camo, and clearly shows again bare decks. I've quite a fair collection of all the KGV's in all their various camo/paint schemes but as yet I have never found any photo anywhere showing any of the ships with painted or camo'd decks. Hope this helps, Aidan.

Regarding KGV, she was still a reletively new ship and apart from a few escort duties, she didn't finish her working up period until 1st April '41 when she arrived at Scapa Flow, where she remained as Flagship Home Fleet until she went after Bismarck so esentially she would have looked more or less the same as PoW, and having spent 7 weeks at Scapa, its very unlikely she would have much in the way of weathering when she went out after Bismarck. If anything, she would have been cleaner than PoW, as Pow still had dockyard workers on board finishing off the ship, and one of the main gripes the RN always had with dockyard workers in general was the mess they would make while working on a ship.

[Mike W]

Aidan, thanks for the info but now I'm home,
I've checked my shipcraft book and it states it was probably apc507c superstructure, and apc507a hull and decks and goes onto say the weather decks were painted a dark colour also possibly apc507a, except the deck forwared of the foremost breakwater. Page 54 has a photo of Duke of York in 1942 with dark colour decks - similar to the shade of the turret tops but on that pic the forward deck looks dark coloured too.
German modeller Peter Beisheim did an excellent model of Duke of York in the camou and it looks like apc507a/apc507c and no other colours - decks fully painted. has anyone else got any info or sources regarding this?

thanks
Mike

[Luca Bevilacquaback]

Hi Aidan, many thanks again.
So for Bismarck chase
KGV cleaner than PoW,
same AA fit for both,
only differences KGV with degaussing cable PoW without
KGV with radar lantern PoW without (to be omitted Tamiya 1:350 pieces E9 + E17 or just E9, anyone can check pls ?)

Thanks again
Luca

[ar]

Hi Aidan, many thanks again.
So for Bismarck chase
KGV cleaner than PoW,
same AA fit for both,
only differences KGV with degaussing cable PoW without
KGV with radar lantern PoW without (to be omitted Tamiya 1:350 pieces E9 + E17 or just E9, anyone can check pls :) ?)

Thanks again
Luca

POW had painted decks still in place during the Bismarck action. Camouflage of the wooden decks was applied by the builder while the ship was in the yard as a defence against air attacks. See aerial photos of the ship taken in august 1941 to see how unpainted wooden decks appear.

POW would probably be CLEANER than KGV, not as stated above.

Different AA fit between the two ships in may 1941

Check your references.
Alan Raven

[GaryJ in NC]

"POW had painted decks still in place during the Bismarck action. Camouflage of the wooden decks was applied by the builder while the ship was in the yard as a defence against air attacks. See aerial photos of the ship taken in august 1941 to see how unpainted wooden decks appear."

Alan: I assume from your remarks above that, in May 1941, PRINCE OF WALE was in overall AP507B with AP 507A on all horizontal surfaces including turret tops, steel decks, and wooden decks. For hte North Atlantic, this makes perfect sense to me. Did I understand you correctly?

Regards, GaryJ in NC

[Aidan]

Sorry Alen, Prince of Wales did NOT have camo decks at the time of the Bismarck episode as this photo, taken on 22nd May 1941 from a patrolling Sunderland aircraft proves beyond any doubt

[dick]

The 22 May photo from the Sunderland actually shows that the decks were darkened (stained or painted) rather than bare wood which would show ligher in tone - see pictures on pages 290 and 291 of the Raven & Roberts book.

On page 289 of the Raven & Roberts BB book there is a direct overhead view of Prince of Wales which was also taken in May 1941. This shows how dark the decks were.

Alan is right.

[Aidan]

Thats fair enough, my understanding was Alan was saying the decks were camo'd at the time in question, whereas the photo proves they weren't, in which case my apologies to you Alan if I misinterpreted what you were saying. As for the decks being painted/stained etc, I know that when ships were worked on, they would often put some kind of coating on them to protect the wood from the mess the builders usually made, perhaps thats what we're seeing in the photo, plus the other thing to remember as well , especially with B/W photo's, when wet, a wood deck will also look much darker, giving a "painted" appearence, we could be seeing that as well. Believe me, I'm no expert so I just go by what my research turns up, and to date, I have been unable to find any reference whatsover that conclusively confirms beyound doubt that the KGVs did have painted decks. If someone has proof I would be more than happy to be corrected