1/96 USS Cleveland Class (vessel TBD) scratch build 'Novice'

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ARH
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Re: 1/96 USS Cleveland Class (vessel TBD) scratch build 'Nov

Post by ARH »

Michael Davies wrote:
ARH wrote:Looking good Michael , :thumbs_up_1: :thumbs_up_1: :wave_1:
Thank you, long way to go before I get to your level :), both productivity and skill wise LOL, I do like your large double skinned area idea on your Helena, the Cleveland's have two knuckles and the skin between them is pretty flat in the horizontal plane which suits the large skin application technique.

Kindest

Michael

I just had a look at your cad work, I see what you mean about the knuckels, Yes it would suit the large plate idea, like your cad work, even though my son is an instrement designer using cad, he would never show me how to do it, to much for his old dad to take in, :heh: :heh:
Simple but effective.
Michael Davies
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Re: 1/96 USS Cleveland Class (vessel TBD) scratch build 'Nov

Post by Michael Davies »

ARH wrote: I just had a look at your cad work, I see what you mean about the knuckels, Yes it would suit the large plate idea, like your cad work, even though my son is an instrement designer using cad, he would never show me how to do it, to much for his old dad to take in, :heh: :heh:
Ron,

I found CAD work was all enveloping, it was that and virtually nothing else, all my other hobbies went by the wayside, if all your into is CAD, rendering or game work then thats fine, if not then you soon become frustrated as to progress further you need to devote more time, seriously more time, I'd frequently do 18hr days, 12 at work, 6 on CAD, if off work then 15-18hrs just on CAD, I've even done stupid sessions, 24, 32 and one at 37hrs to meet a dead line, its a young mans game if you want to take it seriously, other wise its just dabbling :) and thats all I do now, use it to visualize model work or to produce shapes for 3D printing for model making.

Anyway, some more progress today in the sun, finalized the full depth keel, cut the solid frames and inserted, not sure about frame 9, should have been solid but I think I'll keep the center partition under the deck and push the batteries under there, that way they wont slop around so much, not sure on that yet, will ponder that whilst I watch the Grand Prix this evening :). Hopefully last thing this evening affix the full depth keel to the main deck and let it set over night, at the moment the weight is very light so I may not need to drill lightening holes at all though still not sure what to do about access toward the rear of the vessel for prop tube insertion or rudder control, may well opt for full open frames back here and some holes in the deck for access. The current deck is not the final deck, there will be a curved thin ply added over this to represent the sloped decks on these vessels, so any holes in here are not much of an issue.

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Enjoy

Michael
Last edited by Michael Davies on Mon May 02, 2011 10:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
NorthSea
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Re: 1/96 USS Cleveland Class (vessel TBD) scratch build 'Nov

Post by NorthSea »

Looks great Michael, very precise! :thumbs_up_1:
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Ticonderoga
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Re: 1/96 USS Cleveland Class (vessel TBD) scratch build 'Nov

Post by Ticonderoga »

Very nice in deed Michael, keep up the good work and the pics :thumbs_up_1:

Andrew
:wave_1: :wave_1:
Ex RAN. Anzac, Duchess, Vampire, Yarra, Betano, Bombard, Brisbane, Swan, Melbourne (Carrier), HMS Leander
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Capit�o Norbert
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Re: 1/96 USS Cleveland Class (vessel TBD) scratch build 'Nov

Post by Capit�o Norbert »

i agree the guys.
Michael don't forget to chanfer the stations..
vey good work :wave_1: :smallsmile:
Michael Davies
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Re: 1/96 USS Cleveland Class (vessel TBD) scratch build 'Nov

Post by Michael Davies »

Capit�o Norbert wrote:i agree the guys.
Michael don't forget to chanfer the stations..
vey good work :wave_1: :smallsmile:
Yes, hmmm, well....LOL, I forgot and in some cases can't as chamfering will make the frames a little narrow, so they will stick where they touch LOL. Most can be rectified with small additional strips, maybe a thin skin on the edge of the frame in a light wood, ie balsa that can be sanded to the correct chamfer, but being as I'm not planking and hoping to run longer larger lengths similar to Ron on his Helena I may get away with it, but then again I may not LOL, and its still cold enough to have the wood fire in, they say ply is excellent as a fire starter :). The skin will be double skinned so the base skin can be tacked into place on the frames, obviating the need for truly accurate chamfered stations. Ironically its not the chamfered frames that concern me the most, its the hungry horse effect that might occur where the knuckles are, I may well have to add longitudinal stringers at these two locations along the hull, it depends on how 'flexible' the primary skin is, and as I don't have any of that material yet its a guessing and waiting game.

I've manged quite a few more frames, just not photoed and its back to 1:1 work for a few days, so it'll be the weekend before any pictorial updates I'm afraid.

Kindest

Michael
NorthSea
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Re: 1/96 USS Cleveland Class (vessel TBD) scratch build 'Nov

Post by NorthSea »

Hi Michael, if you have a Dremel you can chamfer the frames after they are fitted, though it needs a little practice. You need one of those little sanding cylinders (not a disc!), and just let its rotation carry it along the frame as it sands. Touch the frames lightly and never stop moving it along the frame while its in contact. I have done this to improve some of the chamfering on my build and it works better than I expected.
Michael Davies
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Re: 1/96 USS Cleveland Class (vessel TBD) scratch build 'Nov

Post by Michael Davies »

NorthSea wrote:Hi Michael, if you have a Dremel you can chamfer the frames after they are fitted, though it needs a little practice. You need one of those little sanding cylinders (not a disc!), and just let its rotation carry it along the frame as it sands. Touch the frames lightly and never stop moving it along the frame while its in contact. I have done this to improve some of the chamfering on my build and it works better than I expected.
Thanks,

I think I've got one of those in my toolset from brass model loco building, will have a dig around when I get home from work, I will also need to dig out the disc's as I need to cut down the stem to allow a thin sheet of brass to be inserted to form the knife like edge at the bow.

I was also thinking about one of those finger belt sanders but I dont know how small they go, ideally you'd want one with a 1/2" - 1" wide belt and about 6" - 8" long, that way you would be bridging across several frames at once...though not all at the same time LOL, but you could roll it in an arc vertically and horizontally. Most of the midships frames will be ok, the stern and bow will need some attention I am sure, and I know some of these will need the edge building up a few mm because no matter how carefully I marked and cut them there was an error somewhere which will need fettling.

Kindest

Michael
NorthSea
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Re: 1/96 USS Cleveland Class (vessel TBD) scratch build 'Nov

Post by NorthSea »

Michael Davies wrote:Yes, hmmm, well....LOL, I forgot and in some cases can't as chamfering will make the frames a little narrow, so they will stick where they touch LOL.
Hi Michael, I think I've just figured out what you mean by this and why. When I prepare a frame one side of it is taken from the station line on the plans. This side of the frame I fit facing towards midships, and on the station line. The other side of the frame, facing towards the bow for frames on the forward half of the ship and towards the stern for those in the aft half, can then be safely chamfered leaving the frame size at the station line untouched and as correct as you have managed to cut it.

If you have designed your frames with the centre of the plywood on the station line (as I think you might from your post), you will only need to chamfer the half of the ply towards the bow or stern, not the full thickness of the frame.

If you don't chamfer them your planking will probably take up a slightly wider curve than you intended to design for.

This is hard to explain coherently, if it doesn't make sense let me know and I will post a diagram.
Michael Davies
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Re: 1/96 USS Cleveland Class (vessel TBD) scratch build 'Nov

Post by Michael Davies »

NorthSea wrote:
Michael Davies wrote:Yes, hmmm, well....LOL, I forgot and in some cases can't as chamfering will make the frames a little narrow, so they will stick where they touch LOL.
Hi Michael, I think I've just figured out what you mean by this and why. When I prepare a frame one side of it is taken from the station line on the plans. This side of the frame I fit facing towards midships, and on the station line. The other side of the frame, facing towards the bow for frames on the forward half of the ship and towards the stern for those in the aft half, can then be safely chamfered leaving the frame size at the station line untouched and as correct as you have managed to cut it.

If you have designed your frames with the centre of the plywood on the station line (as I think you might from your post), you will only need to chamfer the half of the ply towards the bow or stern, not the full thickness of the frame.

If you don't chamfer them your planking will probably take up a slightly wider curve than you intended to design for.

This is hard to explain coherently, if it doesn't make sense let me know and I will post a diagram.
No that explanation is fine, I did indeed center the frames on the line, not forward of the line at the bow or aft of the line at the stern, however the errors (for example on the bow) are such that the frame is too narrow and only just meets the deck at its forward edge and the mid and rear of the frame are narrower than the deck. In reality I should just have moved the frame forward except the keel already had a notch cut in the right place!. I can see why people now use a square section for the keel rather than a full height affair as I have done, which is beautifully square BTW :), that way they can slide the frames along a little to counter any over or under size, and we are only talking a few mm here, probably the thickness of the cutting blade. I'm already resigned to perhaps having to face the frame edge with a thin strip of more workable material so that some chamfering can be obtained, currently none exceed the required width, at some point in the frame there is fixture to maintain the correct width, but in some cases its a thin margin and luckily the glue I'm using has good gap filling qualities :). I'll really see how much of an issue it is when I begin to skin. I could of course recut new frames to the correct size, but these are in and stuck now, so it'll be retrofit work if required.

Its all part of the learning curve :), mistakes that wont happen on project number two so to speak.

Kindest

Michael
Michael Davies
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Re: 1/96 USS Cleveland Class (vessel TBD) scratch build 'Nov

Post by Michael Davies »

A little update after essential real life chores!.

Front frames in and chamfered as well as deck edge chamfered at the bow, main lightening holes drilled, forgot one in the middle of the keel!, didn't notice until I took the pictures, hopefully get the rest of the mid hull frames cut and fitted tomorrow and then work on the prop tubes and rudder tube as well as the last rear frames. With luck and a fair wind I may be able to pop to the local model shop to see if they have any decent wood I can use for skinning the hull. The shop is heavily into RC planes and cars so may stock wood to suit, can but only hope, doubt B&Q or Homebase will suffice this time LOL.

What is the normal size for a rudder tube on a 1:96 model, same for prop tubes, I'm sure they vary but I just need an average size to drill holes in the wood to accept them later.

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Kindest

Michael
Last edited by Michael Davies on Mon May 02, 2011 10:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Capit�o Norbert
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Re: 1/96 USS Cleveland Class (vessel TBD) scratch build 'Nov

Post by Capit�o Norbert »

Hi Michael your hull model looks great...
i have using Ceddar for my keel and stations and have the same aspect color of your stations..
great job from you :thumbs_up_1: :wave_1:
NorthSea
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Re: 1/96 USS Cleveland Class (vessel TBD) scratch build 'Nov

Post by NorthSea »

Hi Michael, didn't realise you are in the UK! :wave_1:

I doubt if you will get any suitable material in B&Q. I usually buy online from Slecuk, they have a good selection of natural wood and plywood and delivery is good though depends on availability.
Michael Davies
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Re: 1/96 USS Cleveland Class (vessel TBD) scratch build 'Nov

Post by Michael Davies »

NorthSea wrote:Hi Michael, didn't realise you are in the UK! :wave_1:

I doubt if you will get any suitable material in B&Q. I usually buy online from Slecuk, they have a good selection of natural wood and plywood and delivery is good though depends on availability.
UK?, afraid so, Suffolk for my sin's, not born and bread mind, I'm a county immigrant LOL.

Your Right B&Q wont suffice, they didn't actually suffice for the wood used already (except the frames which were cut from a piece left over from the wood bunker roof, but being about 8" square, warpage is not a big issue), all of their stock in both the main local large stores were warped beyond use, not just one board but the whole stack and in most sizes, poorly stacked or got wet and dried not flat, cheap as chips mind, ended up buying the 5mm ply for the keel and deck from Homebase, nice and flat but 3.5x more expensive, they did have some 3mm in large sheets though, but thats a little thick for the skin, ideally looking for 1mm I think, if I read ARH thread correctly.

Thanks for the supplier tip, will look them up on the morrow.

Kindest

Michael
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ARH
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Re: 1/96 USS Cleveland Class (vessel TBD) scratch build 'Nov

Post by ARH »

Hi Michael, 1mm is just a little thicker than mine, 1mm = 25 sheets to 1 inch mine is 1/32 =32 sheets to 1 inch. :thumbs_up_1: :heh:
Simple but effective.
Michael Davies
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Re: 1/96 USS Cleveland Class (vessel TBD) scratch build 'Nov

Post by Michael Davies »

Ron,

Had a look at NorthSea's link, they stock 0.8mm which will suffice, having not see the material or its flexibility I'm unsure whether it'll be 2 skins at 0.8mm (1/32) or like yours, one at 0.8mm (1/32) and one at 0.4mm (1/64), either way the skin is going to take a lot of ply and your easily looking at nearly �100 which ever option you go for. Better yet they are only just up the road from me, so I fancy a drive by sale might be in the offing :). I'd hoped for perhaps a single skin of 1mm and sanded smooth where applicable, but that size doesn't seem available so it'll be (depending on which two thickness's I use) 1.2mm (3/64) or 1.6mm (1/16) total thickness. OR.....one skin at 1.5mm which I may use for the large side areas around the knuckles and then a combination of above for the high shape change areas....ohh the math and permutations!, its enough to drive one quite mad :).

Also found my local hobby store has an very wide ranging e shop, alas no ply but plenty of balsa for all my other needs, prop tubes too ( 2 at 18" and 2 at 14"), and props (perhaps not 100% authentic but four bladed- 40mm dia and look ok...to me LOL), and motors by the dozen, which throws the next conundrum, which motors, as they all seem very very expensive and for a four prop cruiser thats a lot of money....not that I even imagined this would be a cheap past time LOL.

Kindest

Michael
Michael Davies
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Re: 1/96 USS Cleveland Class (vessel TBD) scratch build 'Nov

Post by Michael Davies »

Well, time for a small update :).

Finished all the internal frames, had to double up at the stern due to the excessive chamfer and the holes for the prop shafts blew through the thin wall, not to self, drill hole first, then cut out frame :), other than that went ok for a first time.

Started to add the skin, opted for 1.5mm (3/32) for the larger flat expanses and will do the curvy bits with two skins of 0.8mm (1/32), so far so good but even the thick 3mm skin is creating a few small niggles between the frame, it just wants to keep ballooning out between the frames, careful clamping and a thin double thickness at the joins seems to help, we'll see when I have to add the lower hull sections in due course.

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Enjoy

Michael
Last edited by Michael Davies on Mon May 02, 2011 10:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Capit�o Norbert
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Re: 1/96 USS Cleveland Class (vessel TBD) scratch build 'Nov

Post by Capit�o Norbert »

good aspect Michael
quest: why do you open holes in the main deck? do you pretend cover it? :wave_1: :thumbs_up_1:
Michael Davies
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Re: 1/96 USS Cleveland Class (vessel TBD) scratch build 'Nov

Post by Michael Davies »

Norbert,

Two reasons, weight saving and I might need to get my fingers in there around the prop shaft exits to seal any leaks etc :), I also extended the holes past the working areas in case I need to add weight to balance the water life fore and aft.

The main deck you see at the moment is only the skeleton, it will eventually be covered by a cambered deck in 1.5mm ply, except for the square openings which will access the working areas.

It is a different approach to making ship hulls I know, will I do it on the next one?, maybe, but I may change some aspects, the T shaped skeleton certainly helps keep everything square and makes a very robust core, perhaps a little heavy, I think the hull when fully skinned will still be under 5Kg.

Best

Michael
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Capit�o Norbert
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Re: 1/96 USS Cleveland Class (vessel TBD) scratch build 'Nov

Post by Capit�o Norbert »

Hi Michael
very good.
each modeller have own particularities. is good new look or new technic too.
i was thinking about the weight reducing you do. this has sense.
your hull production is very good for me.
i will watching :wave_1: :thumbs_up_1:
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