Germany 1922 - what would you do?

[JWintjes]

The German torpedo boats only took their world leading status because no one else with major naval pretensions and native warship development capability expended any effort on the dying breed. The mini-destroyer style torpedo boat, like most other mini-something style surface warship, were judged inviable and therefore abandoned by all other major naval powers.

I disagree. The Raubtier/Raubvogel boats were perfect for the North Sea, the Baltic and the Channel. Small, fast, with a powerful anti-ship punch they fit perfectly to what was asked of them in the 1920s. In the late 1930s their main drawback was their small size which didn't allow for additional AA capabilities to be built into them.

Now, the Elbing destroyers on the other hand were a perfectly viable design exactly for the same reasons - large destroyers are fine if you want to do open sea warfare in the Pacific. In the confined coastal waters of the Channel, the North Sea and the Baltic you want small boats with a heavy punch.

The Elbing destroyers were exactly that. The only criticism that could be fielded against them was that the Germans never gave up the requirement for a heavy torpedo armament - replacing one set of torpedo tubes with additional AA guns might have made them even more useful.

Besides, they were excellent sea boats and, as I said, very well received by their crews.

And I definitely like their looks...

Jorit

[JWintjes]

The activities of all sides in 1919-1923 led directly to WW.II. It is hard to imagine a worse outcome than to allow Hitler or the Reds to topple the weak center.

Actually I doubt that - WW2 was avoidable even after 1933; the problem is that noone actually stood up to do what was necessary.

Jorit

[Lesforan]

Try this idea:

The impetus for the rise of Hitler was the problem Germany had making reparations to France. Hitler was able to use the Jews as scapegoats because of Jewish families in control of large international (supernational, in today's terms) banks. Then, even as now, these multinational corporations owed loyalty to no country. The fact that most Jews in Germany and elsewhere in Europe were merely middle-class people who had no connection with international banking was overlooked in political expediency.

The United States emerged from WWI relatively unscathed. Our economy was unravaged. Aside from a short wave of trumped-up anti-German hysteria to fuel the war effort, Americans harbored no long-standing grudges against Germany. As Werner has pointed out, roughly half the American population was of German descent.

The money that Germany "owed" France as reparations would take years to repay, and cause the hardship in Germany that led to the rise of the Nazis, or possibly even worse, the rise of the Communists. One wonders
what the reaction of the French would have been to a Communist-dominated Germany. France was the birthplace of Communism, and has traditionally cast a blind eye to its excesses, as long as those Communists were at a safe distance. For all of France's Socialist claptrap, I think they would have found the Nazis less threatening.

Applying a modern-day solution to the problem, how about France selling its German war debt to the United States? This would have solved several problems.

France was in bad economic shape, German war reparations notwithstanding. She had suffered (as had Germany, and Britian to a lesser extent) the loss of an entire generation of young men. Resources that could have been put to better use tending her empire were expended on the war.

The United States, flush with money and entering the booming 1920's, could have bought this debt at a discount to enable France to get all the money up front. Being in better financial condition, and not being a hotbed of anti-German sentiment, the US could have extended better terms of repayment to Germany, maybe even forgiven some of the debt.
This may have lessened the appeal of the Nazis and Communists to the German people. The resulting lack of impetus to re-armament by aiding the Wiemar Republic may have prevented WWII in Europe alltogether.
The money saved alone would have justified going easy on Germany.

The United States was not a member of the League of Nations. We were free to make our own deals with whoever we wanted to. We could have used our new position as the new creditor to Germany to become a major trading partner with a democratic Germany. When Germany felt the need to eventually re-arm, they could have done so with American-built ships.

Everything would be fine in Europe.

Now, if we could just have figured out how to deal with those pesky Japanese.....

[Werner]

Your plan would probably have avoided the worldwide and US depressions.

[Seasick]

Honestly What would I do in 1922. I would not worry about new construction Germany is nearly bankrupt and I don't want to ask for too much money from the Reighstag.

1. The Merchant marine needs to be builtup and civilian ship building industry made healthy very quickly. The civilian yards IIRC can't build naval ships but a strong industry can be a source of skill and technology for for the Naval yards.

2. Establish a Naval Police as part of the national police force and stock it with naval personal as an attempt to circumvent the Versallis treaty.

3. Encourage private industry in further developement of marine diesels, and use my position and influence with the government to aid the process. Help secure export customers for the diesels if necessary.

4. Evaluate the material condition of all warships that Germany is permitted to keep by the Versallis treaty. The two best predreadnought battleships will get the best refits possible. The next four predreadnoughts get a modrate refit and the rest of the predreadnoughts are laid up or scrapped. Cruisers in good material condition get moderate refits as funding is avalible. New destroyers as funds are avalible. Negotiate with the allies to increase the displacement allowed for destroyers if the number of destroyers and torpedo boats can be decreased in a trade.

[bengtsson]

It is interesting to see that the German torpedo boats of later years (apart from the first two series, that is), in contrast to the destroyers were immensely popular and highly capable.

The German torpedo boats only took their world leading status because no one else with major naval pretensions and native warship development capability expended any effort on the dying breed. The mini-destroyer style torpedo boat, like most other mini-something style surface warship, were judged inviable and therefore abandoned by all other major naval powers.

I agree, the German desire for these very small mini-destroyers was a dead end and a waste of money. They could deliver torpedoes of course, but that was about all. No ability to fight a gun battle, little ASW ability and next to no AA ability. They were too small to make the wartime add ons to and most ended up as mini-minelayers and training ships. The eventual large torpedo boats that were destroyer size were pretty decent as Destroyer Escort type ships. But still lacked heavy enough guns and space for large AA outfits. I think the German Torpedo Boats were dead ends and a waste for what they could be used for in the war. Any British DD or even Hunt Class would slaughter them. Only the T-22-36 were viable warships and they were 1,294 tons, really a Destroyer escort type.

Bob B.

[Mark Petersen]

War reperations are pushing your economy into the basement. The government has no money for the Navy beyond the bare minimum. But paper is still cheap (after all look at all those Marks). Start by doing design studies on fast really fast destroyers even if they have short legs. Do metallurgical research on high strength alloys for armor plate, increased depth capability for U-Boat hulls when the time comes. Try and get the merchant fleet rebuilt around a standard type of merchant vessel. Diesel powered of about 8 to 10,000 tons. Dust off the mordibund radio detection experiments for surface ships. As stated paper studies on new torpedoes and mines. And above all try and get the government to try and seek trade partners overseas and build international relationships. IMO Imperial Germany was no more responsible for WWI than France, Austria or Russia. And all of them paid a heavy price for their part in the war's begining. But Germany was singled out by the Allies as the instigator

[chuck]

I disagree. The Raubtier/Raubvogel boats were perfect for the North Sea, the Baltic and the Channel. Small, fast, with a powerful anti-ship punch they fit perfectly to what was asked of them in the 1920s. In the late 1930s their main drawback was their small size which didn't allow for additional AA capabilities to be built into them.

Except for the fact that their particular size and design constrains them to be sitting ducks before anything that flies, or anything that floats and are more powerful than a corvette, they are very useful warships.

The Elbing destroyers were exactly that. The only criticism that could be fielded against them was that the Germans never gave up the requirement for a heavy torpedo armament - replacing one set of torpedo tubes with additional AA guns might have made them even more useful.

To improve their odds of surviving the barriers that kept them from doing any good, they must give up the tools they will need to do any good. So it would appear that it's just not in the stars for them to do much good.

And I definitely like their looks...

Jorit

I have to admit that during WWII, the German surface warships attained a higher level of average beauty than the surface fleet of any other power. But little good did that do them.

[Laurence Batchelor]

I have to admit that during WWII, the German surface warships attained a higher level of average beauty than the surface fleet of any other power. But little good did that do them.

I couldn't disagree more, most of the capital ships had the same silhouette, same funnel, same looking turrets and bridge.
I find them very boring with little variation.
and their beauty is they look functional and scientific rather than works of art.

In terms of the WW2 destroyers I don't think they stack up well in the looks department either, sorry.

[JWintjes]

I have to admit that during WWII, the German surface warships attained a higher level of average beauty than the surface fleet of any other power. But little good did that do them.

I couldn't disagree more, most of the capital ships had the same silhouette, same funnel, same looking turrets and bridge.
I find them very boring with little variation.
and their beauty is they look functional and scientific rather than works of art.

In terms of the WW2 destroyers I don't think they stack up well in the looks department either, sorry.

Hey!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That was Chuck's quote, not mine!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I find German capital ships dull to the extreme - it's the looks of the early torpedo boats and the early llight cruisers that I find quite pleasing!

Jorit

[JWintjes]

I agree, the German desire for these very small mini-destroyers was a dead end and a waste of money. They could deliver torpedoes of course, but that was about all. No ability to fight a gun battle, little ASW ability and next to no AA ability.

This is only true for the first two series of post-1933 boats, which simply were designed according to a fundamentally flawed tactical concept. It is not true for the Flottentorpedoboote, which are in the same league as all other escort destroyers.

As for the early Raubvogel/Raubtier boats, they had to be small (Versailles! 800 tons max!), and for their size they were capable warships. I disagree with the concept of judging a design made to comply to the Versailles treaty and to fulfil tactical requirements of the early 1920s by the standards of the late 1930s/early 1940s.

Jorit

[Laurence Batchelor]

Hey!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That was Chuck's quote, not mine!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I find German capital ships dull to the extreme - it's the looks of the early torpedo boats and the early llight cruisers that I find quite pleasing!

Jorit

My apologies, I deleted the wrong bit, now duly corrected!
I forgot you have taste!

[bengtsson]

When it comes to warships , you want "Looks that Can Kill".

But looks aren't everything in a relationship.

Bob B.

[bengtsson]

I agree, the German desire for these very small mini-destroyers was a dead end and a waste of money. They could deliver torpedoes of course, but that was about all. No ability to fight a gun battle, little ASW ability and next to no AA ability.

This is only true for the first two series of post-1933 boats, which simply were designed according to a fundamentally flawed tactical concept. It is not true for the Flottentorpedoboote, which are in the same league as all other escort destroyers.

As for the early Raubvogel/Raubtier boats, they had to be small (Versailles! 800 tons max!), and for their size they were capable warships. I disagree with the concept of judging a design made to comply to the Versailles treaty and to fulfil tactical requirements of the early 1920s by the standards of the late 1930s/early 1940s.

Jorit

I think my earlier post took your point above into account. At least as regards the T22s. I called them DE types. With the DP gun outfit and their size, they were DEs for all intents and purposes. They were also designed for a high threat air environment. All the types before them were a waste. A DE type in WWII was a very valuable wartime design.

Bob B.

[JWintjes]

I think my earlier post took your point above into account. At least as regards the T22s. I called them DE types. With the DP gun outfit and their size, they were DEs for all intents and purposes. They were also designed for a high threat air environment. All the types before them were a waste. A DE type in WWII was a very valuable wartime design.

Bob B.

I agree for the T1-21 type - definitely a waste of effort; the reports from the navy were pretty damning, too ("tactical usefulness of an E-Boat but with neither the speed nor the ability to hide itself"...).

The Raubtier/Raubvogel boats were - for their size; again, the maximum size was unavoidable - extremely successful in the interwar period and right up to the invasion proved to be reliable workhorses in the Channel (much more, incidentally, than the T1-21s).

Jorit

PS: Just in case you didn't notice - I like the Raubtier/Raubvogel boats...

[JWintjes]

Except for the fact that their particular size and design constrains them to be sitting ducks before anything that flies, or anything that floats and are more powerful than a corvette, they are very useful warships.

Hmm, 3 5in guns is not more powerful than a corvette? You're thinking of powerful corvettes, my friend...

To improve their odds of surviving the barriers that kept them from doing any good, they must give up the tools they will need to do any good. So it would appear that it's just not in the stars for them to do much good.

Good point - with which one can consign the torpedo-carrying destroyer outright into the bin. If I remember correctly nearly everyone traded one tube for additional gun armament at some point or other.

Jorit

[JWintjes]

When it comes to warships , you want "Looks that Can Kill".

Good point, Bob!

Jorit

[Werner]

I'm surprised no one has followed the thread of the possibility of renegotiating parts of the Versailles limits to give Germany a practical navy, not one geared to the threat of pirates from Estonia.

We are too young to appreciate the war weariness of the 1920s. I think if Germany prepared the ground diplomatically, it would not be too difficult to get better terms.

[bengtsson]

I'm surprised no one has followed the thread of the possibility of renegotiating parts of the Versailles limits to give Germany a practical navy, not one geared to the threat of pirates from Estonia.

We are too young to appreciate the war weariness of the 1920s. I think if Germany prepared the ground diplomatically, it would not be too difficult to get better terms.

I can't agree Werner. France was very war weary, but they were out for Germany's blood! The treaty was meant to kill Germany as a national power and nothing less. France would have fought to keep the treaty. By the 1930s though, you become right. France was sinking as a nation without the morale to fight another war. Germany angry over their treatment after WWI were as they say up here "loaded for Bear".
Germany had to wait out the 20s and try and rebuild an economy before they took on naval building on any scale. So best build a few Destroyers and plan and study for the future i.e. the mid 1930s.

Bob B.

[JWintjes]

I'm surprised no one has followed the thread of the possibility of renegotiating parts of the Versailles limits to give Germany a practical navy, not one geared to the threat of pirates from Estonia.

It is actually funny that you mentionen Estonian pirates - "fighting piracy" was quite high on the Reichsmarine's list for possible duties for the new navy - the thinking here was one of the Baltic turning into a sea of lawlessness.

We are too young to appreciate the war weariness of the 1920s. I think if Germany prepared the ground diplomatically, it would not be too difficult to get better terms.

I think you're far too optimistic here. We mustn't forget that with all war-weariness there was also an enormous bitterness on all sides that prevented the French (arguably quite understandably so, as they had suffered the worst in the West) from making any concessions, and prevented successive German governments from moving towards France for much the same reason.

Germany in fact did try to improve its situation by both working diplomatically - which culminated in Locarno and the admission to the league of nations - and in secrecy with trying to reestablish certain capabilities (aircraft, gas) forbidden by Versailles.

Personally I doubt that in the early 1920s the Versailles treaty could have been negotiated away. Certainly there was room for minor adjustments, such as asking for tonnage reassignement, but getting it totally from the table was simply not in the offing.

The interesting thing is that, while German governments tried to probe the treaty limitations (by buying back cruisers from France and Italy, the 6in twin affair, the 5in affair, the Deutschland design process etc etc), they apparently never tried to get more destroyer tonnage.

Also, the 200 ton torpedo boat was dropped early in the 1920s never to be seen again.

Jorit