Calling all Bismarck and Tirpitz fans

[Stein Gildberg]

Hello there!

As most of you guys I have built a number of Bismarck models over the years - at least seven I think, so far.
I enclose a couple of photos of my last Bismarck that was finished last year - Revell 1:350- Grimstadfjord, Bergen Norway, May 1941.

The main purpose of this message is however, to share with you some pictures of my friend Arne Magnor Johansen's Bismarck. The building has been going on for some years now. Scale is a fantastic 1:50; the ship is more than 5 meter long!!!
The craftmanship is unbelievable! Arne is an ex fisherman and wharfowner living in Torsken, Senja in Northern Norway.
The pictures I post show mainly the finished parts: THa hull - built from wooden ribs and wooden sheets, covered with .1mm platic sheets.
The main deck is covered with teak planks, each plank is 6mm wide. The number of planks from side to side as well as the total number is correct! The teak is all recoveded stuff from DMK Tirpitz. After the war the ship was boken up and teak planks were used for everything needed in a wartorn Norway: A garage, poles for fences in the farmers fields etc.

I do not know when the project will be finished, probably in 2 years time. After this it will be put out for sale.

Enjoy!

[Antonio Bonomi]

Hello Stein,

are you sure about the Baltic camo you painted on your Bismarck model ?? ...especially the Fliegersichtzeichen colour ???

Then the flag post ? The side boats and the davits ? ...you may want to double check Grimstad Fjord Bismarck available photos,....

Bye Antonio

[Stein Gildberg]

I know about the boats/ davits. The fact is that I could not resist the temptation to put them there. Looks nice, does it not?
Same goes for the Flagposts.
There are a couple more things as well. Color of wackeltopfs and range finders- should probably be dark grey.
What about depth charges rack? Taken from Kaisers books. Not sure if they were really there...

Not quite sure what you mean about Fliegersichtzeichen, but you are probably referring to the ""tarpaulin" I made iin order to conseal the swasikas from the air. Again, I am not sure this was done at this moment in time. Made from painted aluminium foil by the way.

So, as you see, I am aware of the " errors" if you compare to pictures from Bergen, but I deliberately allowed myself this "artistic freedom".

[Antonio Bonomi]

Hello Stein ,

first of all I fully agree with you, one thing is what was reality,..another thing is what I like on my model,..and the fun of modeling is just this last concept,.... and being a modeler myself I take those " artistic licenses " whole hearteadly, .... we are on the same boat here.

Your model looks really nice .... and YES there are things that in order to make it close to the reality could be modified.

Wackeltopfs were dark grey, there were the depth charges on the stern like on Prinz Eugen ( see May 5th, and Hitler visit photos ), ... the smoke generators too all around,... some rafts,... etc etc

Fliegersichtzeichen was the " disposition " for friendly air recognition ( Luftwaffe ) and included the top turret colour as well as the swastika's.
You can put it ON or OFF,..and consequently you could have swastikas and YELLOW top turrets and this was ON, .. or tarpaulin ( only into Bergen ) or grey paint covering the swastika's and top turrets dark grey, and this last was OFF, so out of Luftwaffe covering range.

Here inside more infos and some photos for you to see :

http://www.kbismarck.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1659

In action at sea the main deck railings were folded down from wavebreakers to the bow and from level C turret to the stern, no flag post.

Here some more infos you may want to read about Bismarck top turret colours :

http://www.kbismarck.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=232

Bye and happy modeling ... as my friend Olaf is used to say ...

Antonio

[Brayden's dad]

Hi all,

After a couple of years hiatus and moving over to the dark side (tanks and planes ) for a break, I'm beginning a 1/350 Bismarck. I know Jim B knows me but Antonio may struggle (I was on Bismarck site a few years ago, shared a few emails with John and I remember your debates about whether a not a film of Bismarck firing on Hood is being viewed as a mirror image....I'm not debating about it but I just remember it....it's good to see you're still around, Antonio, and I've always admired your dedication). Step 1 is research.

I'm absolutely amazed at how fast this hobby has expanded....wooden decks, new ships (Roma etc).

I've read through the first 20 odd pages of this topic and I have a couple of questions,
1. I've seen a KA wooden deck on a 1/350 Musashi and, I must say, they are quite impressive. How are they on the Bismarck model and do they compliment the WEM PE deck set?
2. A question for Olaf (I've noticed over the first 20 pages that you seem to be the painting guru ). Like 90% of the people on this site, I do this for a hobby and, although I want to get the colours closer than the Tamiya colours, I cannot really justify going out and spending $$$$$ on new paints when I may already have the equivalent here with me. What (Tamiya) colours (or mixture thereof) are required for (relative) authenticity on Bismarck? I want to build it with the grey turret tops and the Baltic stripes. When I say (relative) authenticity", I don't need to have it picture perfect but, as you often say, I struggle with the concept that hull red was the same colour used for the RN, IJN, USN, Kriegsmarine, RAN etc.
3. I've always thought the WEM photo etch sets are the most authentic. For those who have built Bismarck a few times....what is the best PE set(s)? That should open a can of worms
4. Finally, the AA sets that come with the Tamiya model can be a little "how ya goin'" to say the least - especially the 2 quad sets on the bridge (I'm sure everyone knows what I mean). I remember a few years ago, someone found a superb replacement for these 2 quads. I would appreciate peoples' input for improving/replacing the AA gear on the Tamiya Bismarck.

Regards,
Troy.

[Antonio Bonomi]

Hello Troy and all,


you have a very good memory,...but lucky me now that "reversed " photo and film theory is dead and buried forever, ... no more of it ...

Let me try to provide you some help here on you Bismarck project :

1) No help from me on the wodden deck, .... never done on my 350 models, sorry.

2) Olaf is " the best " as you realized about KM colours, ....

3) There are at least 3 good PE sets : Gold Medal Model ( GMM ), ... White Ensign Model ( WEM ) , ... and EDUARD... for Tamiya 1/350 Bismarck. To be at top you should use all 3 of them.... like I do.... but it will be expensive ....

4 ) There are now photo etched sets also for the A/A guns included on EDUARD kits or available aside as addittional kits ( WEM or EDUARDS). That Tamiya part is just orrible,... but you may want to realize that you can use and take parts from the very good REVELL 1/350 Bismarck kit too, ....that has very good detailed parts too,..especially for the A/A guns.

Bye Antonio

[Seeadler290]

Hello Troy,
Veterans Models makes a number of highly detailed mixed media components to enhance 1/350 DKM kits.
The 20mm FlaKvierling C33's they make are gorgeous. They are also exceedingly intricate and delicate.
They also make several sets of on-deck optics, speakers, searchlights etc. All are just amazing, but again have some of the tiniest parts I have ever seen and are quite delicate when assembled.

I just installed the new Pontos wood deck on my 1/350 Revell Bismarck and am very impressed with the product. They make one for the Tamiya kit, but it will not have the thicker wood decking at the forward anchors as this was new on the Revell offering due to comments on this forum.

Build it as you like, BUT HAVE FUN!

[Olaf Held]

2. A question for Olaf (...)

Hi Troy ~ A friend of mine from the German Modell-Helling used Tamiya paints on his Graf Spee. According to his WIP we can adapt the following for Bismarck:

Antifouling ~ 4 x XF9 + 1 x XF7
Boot-topping and steel decks ~ XF69 (I would lighten it a bit with light grey)
Hull ~ XF66
Superstructure ~ XF19
Dark bow/stern/turret tops/hangar roofs/bridge and rangefinder roofs ~ XF63 (he used this for the dark grey on his superstructure, looks a tad on the dark side).
Teak decks ~ XF55 (I would lighten this with light grey as well)

I did not try all of this on my own workbench (I should do this) but what I see on my computer screen looks good to me. It may not be 100% accurate (and I would like to point out that I fully agree with you, there is no way to achieve 100% accuracy, and as I think model building is just about fooling the eye, just take everything that makes your model look good in your eyes), but I think the overall effect, esp. on his Graf Spee, is very good.

Remember that you need a distictive difference between hull grey and superstructure grey, and the same between steel decks and dark grey turret tops. From light to dark it should read: supertructure, hull, turret tops, boot-topping/steel decks. This sums up to four shades of grey, six if you want to apply scale effect to the b/w-stripes.

Ship's boats were light grey with dark underbelly (maybe black, or just the same as the mothership's boot-topping). Crated wooden panels on open bridge decks were similar in colour as the teak decks, maybe a bit darker, the same applies to the slatted wooden panels on the Admiral's Bridge and the foretop gallery.

Happy painting ~ Olaf!

[Brayden's dad]

Hey thanks you blokes....very much appreciated.

I was contacted this afternoon by the Aussie supplier of WEM products. He seems up to speed with a few things so all seems good in that department.

Thanks Olaf. I did have a look over at the German site but only looked at the pictures....I couldn't understand a word of what was written . Off topic for a second, I have always had the utmost respect for people who can speak more than one language and, Olaf, you seem to have mastered both brilliantly. In Australia, we do have the diversity of Europe as it's all english (except in certain parts of Sydney ). That was one of the most amazing things when I travelled over there....I could travel the same distances I do here and have German in the morning, followed by French, Spanish and then Italian....and that doesn't include all the dialects and the Eastern bloc countries. It amazed me that on one side of the road were French speaking people and on the other were Spanish speaking people....for someone who lived his whole life in the one language speaking country, I found that absolutely amazing.

Antonio, you qualify as above as well. It's meant as a compliment to all people who can speak more than one language.

One final thing....my 8 year old young bloke is building his first model - a 1/72 Spitfire. I was helping him with the colours when I realised alot of my colours I've acquired over the years that are NOT Tamiya are in the RLM spectrum. I may have to rethink my colours. Lucky I'm doing my research first .

Troy.

[Brayden's dad]

Hi all,

The old "Sink the Bismarck!" movie was on the other night.

On the morning of the final battle, there's a scene where some British destroyers are closing in for a torpedo run. Just as they get in range, Bismarck spots them and fires a salvo at them. The destroyers release their torpedoes and one of the captain's says,
"Let's get outta here!"
The next scene shows the Bismarck's salvo landing smack bang on that destroyer, blowing it to pieces. The cameras then cross back to Lutjens and Lindemann on Bismarck's bridge turning to each other with satisfied smiles.

I don't remember reading where a destroyer was destroyed? I've done some research but still can't find anything. Was this Hollywood (London?) fiction?

Troy

[richtea]

The destroyers harried Bismarck all through her last night afloat, the destroyers involved were,
Piorun ( Polish), Maori, Sikh and Zulu of the 5th Destroyer Flotilla commanded by Commander Philip Vian onboard HMS Cossack.
torpedoes were fired, but no hits reported.
Piorun got close enough to fire her 4.7 inch guns at Bismarck.
Regards
Richard

Edit, No destroyers were lost in that action.

[Dan Banks]

Hello Antonio; I am another one that had previous connections with you over the scheme Tirpitz wore during the Sortsplatst operation. I also sent you a couple of bottles of the KM hull and superstructure greys that have since been dicontinued by Testors. Just wondered what you thought? This new information about Bismarks many repaintings is very interesting. I follow you up to the time she actually sailed into the Denmark Straight. Do I understand you correctly that when she fought Hood, the main turrets were light grey on slopes and tops, with dark grey gun barrels. And the secondary, 150MM turrets had dark grey slopes with yellow tops, and dark grey barrels. Insignias at bow and stern were tarp covered?

[Olaf Held]

Hi Dan ~ Please allow me to chime in, Antonio then can sort it out... HA!

From the 22nd May onwards she had light grey slopes but dark grey tops. In my opinion, this dark grey was the same she had on bow and stern previously, and the same as on the bridge and rangefinder tops plus the hangar roofs. It was a bit lighter than the dark grey of the steel decks and the boot-topping. The main gun barrels were painted in a shade similar to the hull grey - but for turrets B and C the parts of the barrels directly above the dark grey tops of turrets A and D were the same dark grey (previously yellow). The secondary turrets (and I think the tops of the heavy AA guns as well) were dark grey. The yellow had been painted out before. The swasticas on f'c'sle and poop were painted over with hull grey - at least this is visible on Prinz Eugen photos. I have no doubt that they did it the same way on Bismarck (because of a radio message from *Fleet* (L�tjens on Bismarck) to the Prinz ordering to overpaint insignias and air recognition marks. Covering the swasticas with canvas was done, according to video documentation at least on the Prinz, when they moved into the fjords (or when they knew to remove the canvas shortly afterwards). In heavy weather canvas on the decks would have been easily blown or washed away. Paint lasts better (and the grey can still be seen (plus the red, white and black!) on the wreck).

Happy painting ~ Olaf!

[Dan Banks]

Thanks Olaf; that seems to be supported by most of the dive photos and coments of those people. Man the Germans were painting fools, can you think of any other Navy that went to the extent they did to designate friendly's! Maybe the Italians, but they weren't repainting their ships at sea. Makes for interesting models. Can't wait to see someone build a Bismark with dark grey slopes, yellow tops and yellow gun barrel tips, along with all the other detail stuff, dark grey wabble pots, ranfefinders, hanger top etc.

[redoctober27]

found this news reel on the sinking of the bismarck mostly post battle but neat none the less...hope you guys like http://www.criticalpast.com/video/65675 ... Victorious

[amiers]

Off the current topic. i am about to start my revell Bismarck and have gone through sooo many reference books it's not funny. i have come across something i had never noticed in all the years i have been a Bismarck fan, the 3 main range finder /radar's are almost always facing starboard. Yet as modelers we set them facing forward.

[EJFoeth]

I suppose these were harbour pics? Radars were either censored out or the rangefinders positioned such that official photographs showed them badly.

[amiers]

No, if you look at most shots of the ship when underway or in harbour.

[Olaf Held]

Maybe on even days to port, on uneven to starboard?

Happy guessing ~ Olaf!

[Marco_Trigo]

Actually most pictures show the radars pointed to opposite quarters of the ship, and this is true for most of the ships, including the L�tzow, Prinz Eugen, Hipper, and many pictures of Tirpitz in Norway show this arrangement. Only rarely would they be trained all to the same side, as that would mean the ships had one hell of a blind spot. The rear rangefinder also seems trained to one side more often than the top one.

http://www.navsource.org/archives/09/46/094630007.jpg
http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Bil ... pper-2.jpg
http://www.asisbiz.com/il2/Ar-196/Ar-19 ... way-01.jpg
http://photo.starnet.ru/Thematic_Wallpa ... tz-44a.jpg
http://bemil.chosun.com/nbrd/files/BEMI ... %20145.jpg
http://www.bw-hilchenbach.de/deu_08.jpg

Before the radars were installed, these rangefinders seem to be mostly trained forward and after. Again, it makes sense, because they radars would be conducting searches, the rangefinders wouldn't.

What I just don't know is what was the policy concerning radar operation, namely, if there was a standard bearing to follow while underway. or radars were trained according to the commanding staff's orders with no position being "the norm".

Marco