The Ship Model Forum

Bruno,

I cannot check against my copy of the AAMM-plans of the GLOIRE, as I am currently travelling in South America. However, the model in Paris shows basically plain conical muzzles for the SOLFERINO:



You may also want to consult the latest issue of NEPTUNIA, where an overview of mid- to late-19th century French ordnannce is given. I have at home various of the sources quoted, such as the 'Aide Memoires' (1873ff) for the French naval artillery.

Any progress on the models/kits ?

wefalck

wefalck wrote:Any progress on the models/kits ?

wefalck

Hello Wefalck! To answer your question... yes. There has been some developments in French Ironclad Land since I last posted here. Bruno decided to proceed with his own resin master of the Solferino hull, do to the imperfections of mine, and I think also because he felt he could best bring out the potential of his own materials. I quite agree. Bruno is strongly considering partnering with a Resin ship model firm which shall remain anonymous at this time (I'll leave it to Bruno to let the cat out of the bag) and his master, which is now complete, will eventually be available to all the modelers out there who are interested in this type of ship in this scale.
However, though I recognize the flaws in my own Solferino master, I have decided to press on for several reasons, but most of all that I believe the flaws will not be apparent in the completed model, and since my own master is not destined to be a production model, there is nothing standing in the way of me competing with it. So then, L'Audace, L'Audace, Toujours L'Audace!
Above is a picture of my Solferino and Magenta models. The following will depict the Solferino. Progress on Magenta is on hold pending the arrival of more materials from France. The problematic resin funnel. How to hollow this thing out? ...Very carefully. It was a big question, whether I would be able to hollow out the funnel, removing the 'plug' which I put in the master to aid in casting and be left with a smoothly thin-walled funnel that wasn't crushed from the effort... The answer was, well... sort of. I didn't get the inner walls totally smooth, but I was able to file them down to where they would have been passable. However, I broke through the base of the funnel in the process. I could have filled this, but I thought it would be better to proceed with scratching another funnel from brass. Why not? I made the original... I ought to be able to make another.Beginning the planking painting...

This area, a conning tower of sorts was incorrectly filled during the fabbing of the master. I now needed a way to hollow it out so that it would represent a hollow space beneath the conning platform (PE) which will be added soon. A tricky business.Next came the ship's heads doorways, which would be barely visible under the forecastle deck when completed. But since I went to the trouble to make the heads hollow, I thought I'd go ahead and open up the doors. Not the most auspicious place in a ship, but an interesting detail for a model. Getting the door squared open without breaking the lintel was tricky. Time to scratch a new funnel... 'Dryfitting' the new scratched funnel to the hull (testing for height.)

Mysterious doors in the bow under the bowsprit. What could they be? Not hawsers for the Anchors, those are clearly below... Here's a photo of Solferino's bow.And a lithograph.
Judging between all the sources, they appear to be openings for mooring bollards, with vertically hinged doors above and below to close over them during operations at sea... Ok. Good thing I made that forecastle hollow. Now for the Stbd side... Head-on view. One will theoretically be able to look under the forecastle deck and out through the bow mooring 'ports' to whatever is beyond when the model is finished, though with all the detail planned, it will probably not be possible to do so.Gluing the forecastle deck (PE by Bruno) in place. Dry fit shot...

Good to see progress

Judging by the model in the Mus�e de la Marine and by other ships of that time, I would have thought that the 'mysterious' ports are gun-ports for a bow-chaser that could be trained on either side.



I would guess that the gun could not fire straight ahead, but only at an slight angle. This would depend on the clearance between the gun and the 'heads' behind it.

wefalck

wefalck wrote:Good to see progress

Judging by the model in the Mus�e de la Marine and by other ships of that time, I would have thought that the 'mysterious' ports are gun-ports for a bow-chaser that could be trained on either side.
I would guess that the gun could not fire straight ahead, but only at an slight angle. This would depend on the clearance between the gun and the 'heads' behind it.

wefalck

I had a feeling you'd be weighing in on this one Wefalck.
Yes. I considered that. However, the port is both larger and differently configured than any of the known gun ports on the Solferino. In addition, this contemporary lithograph shows what appears to be a pair of bollards in this position. Sorry this pic isn't clear, but I didn't want to bother taking a new one right now. It would make sense to mount the bollards here on the weather deck, and not a deck higher, as the weather deck would be the primary transverse structural component for the hull, and, due both to its size and strength would be much stronger for anchoring a mooring device than the comparatively small deck above. Hiding a pair of bollards behind retractable doors seems a bit strange, but if we keep in mind that this was the first ram-bowed warship in the modern era, (with a new and untried bow form) there might have been (justified) concerns about the sea-keeping of the hull form in this part of the ship. It goes without saying that bollards are not a necessity at sea the way they are in port. Also, I don't think it would have been any great difficulty to cut away the stempost for a chaser gun to fire right forward had they desired this, (this is a common feature in subsequent French Ironclad design) though it would have required something creative to support the weight of the bowsprit, perhaps a reinforced forecastle deck athwart beams.

However, not being an expert on the Solferino I cannot absolutely rule out that these ports were designed and/or used as chaser positions. Judging from photos of the museum model there appears to be a small truck-mounted cannon on the weather deck, stbd, just aft of the forecastle deck. I'm thinking this is probably a signalling cannon, but...heck, who knows?

I should go to the museum and have look into the port of the model - but no time at the moment.

What made me think that it is a gun-port (apart from the fact that this is a typical feature on contemporary ships) is that there appears to be cut-way part (painted white) at the front-end of the port. On the SOLFERINO, the cut-away part is covered by the lids when closed, on later ships the hull forms an ugly nook there (see the example of the somewhat later HMS GANNET below).



And the internal arrangement with the gun in its midship resting position:





However, I can also see the two white bollard-like thingies on your picture. On the other hand, I believe that the hawse-holes where not only used for the anchor chains, but also for mooring hawsers. On this deck all the structural parts would be designed to take the strain of the anchor chains as well as mooring hawsers and chains. In most instances warships where not moored alongside quays, but at mooring buoys (this prevented inter alia seamen from unauthorised leaving the ship and strangers - including pests - from boarding). Bollards as high above the waterline as the ones in the ports of question would cause a considerable downward pull and consequent listing of the ship in anything else but quiet weather and sea.

OK, these are just my thoughts that would need to be verified by further research.

wefalck

So, just out of curiosity, I decided to check the plans regarding these mysterious bow ports. I thought the writing would be too small to see... but it turns out I'm wrong. In very small letters, next to two broken lines which appear to resemble firing angles passing through the bow-ports are the words 'sabord de chase.' I don't know the exact meaning of this phrase but I'm pretty sure it indicates a gun port. So it turns out it is, indeed a gunport for a bow chaser. So a big thank you is in order for the heads up on that, Mr. Wefalck.

Hello Neal,
Just checked on the original plan:



Sabord de chasse (chasing gun port) is exactly what Welfack suggested.
The curved shape behind the sabords is a wooden bulkhead which serves as an additional shield for the two chasing guns.
Maybe this was designed because no iron armour was fitted here.
_Bruno

Glad to see this project continuing on!

Hollowing funnels in resin

use a paralell sided drum cutter ( dremel)

works for me....( but scratching a new funnel-especially a single funnel where repeatabilty is less an issue... is better! )

I had some business in town today and took the opportunity to pop into the Mus�e de la Marine armed with my camera to take a few more pictures of the model of the SOLFERINO.

Unfortunately, the lighting is rather stark and coming mainly from above, resulting in strong shadows. Also the overall light level is rather low, making it rather difficult to produce half-way decent pictures without a tripod.

The first picture tries to peep into the 'sabord de chasse', while in the second, I tried to look under the foc'sle from behind.





Looking through the 'sabord de chasse' I could not see any gun, nor rails nor other fixtures for a chasing gun !?. There is a thin iron column in the centre of the foc'sle and towards its end and in front of the kitchen stove there is large grating. The latter is barely visible in the photograph.

As soon as I have the time to do so, I'll put more detail pictures of the SOLFERINO onto the page on French ironclads on my Web-site.

wefalck

Wow!
Great photos!
Keep them coming!

Thanks so much for your input into this thread, Wefalck. I can see details on these new photos I didn't know were there. What is that small black fixture in front of the forecastle deck? It looks like some kind of stove, or boiler. Interesting. Perhaps for making tar? I suspect the model makers didn't know quite what to do with the space under the forecastle deck either, since they left it blank.

I wasn't able to post all of my progress shots, so I'll have more coming soon.
Cheers!

I put more pictures onto the relevant page of my Web-site: http://www.maritima-et-mechanika.org/ma ... clads.html

@callen: If needed I can also email to you the full-resolution pics.

The big, black thing behind the foc'sle is the kitchen stove, I am inclined to think. However, it would be very exposed and would allow cooking only in fine weather. I don't think it is a tar-making machine, nor a stove to heat bullets, as these had gone out of fashion decades earlier when round shot in plain bores was replaced by ogival projectiles in rifled bores.

wefalck

I think it looks like a blacksmith's forge. The part on the port side looks like a bellows, while on top of the starboard half is what might be a tiny chimney.

Yours,
James D. Gray

James, you may be right. It begs, however, the question what was done on shipboard with such a substantial forge. I know that ships used to carry what we call in German a field-forge for emergency repairs, but this was not set up permanently on board. The one here is too big to stow anywhere conveniently and rather exposed, when left, where it stands.

wefalck

Looks very nice so far Callen

About the "big black thing": looks like a forge to me too. One similar can be seen on a model of the Flandre (Toulon's Marine Museum). Anvils are visible. Sorry for bad pic, yet I guess there's an anvill too behing the forge on Solferino:

Yes, there is definitely an anvil. So question solved:



It seems that the leather(?) bellows are protected from the elements by a sheet-metal casing.

I now realise that these open smithies seem to have been a common feature of the French ships of that time. Here is the OC�AN of 1868:



And the TRIDENT of 1876:




wefalck

Are you sure that last photo isn't Amiral Duperre?

Yours,
James D. Gray

Oops, yes you are right. Thanks for pointing it out. Corrected this also on my own Web-site

wefalck