Carrier Builders Yard, whats on the Slipway

[mitchell300]

Melbourne was a Majestic Class Carrier-not quite sure what the differences are yet!

Lenght and width of the ship...
I thought colussus class =bigger...
And the improved hangar space..

Mitch

[mitchell300]

Hiya Mitch,
Do you really think that the Netherlands will have a Carrier, i had the impression that manpower was a problem in the Netherlands Navy as it is in the Royal Navy ? Den Helder would be the only option for a base, last time i was there i found a cool model shop just outside the base, they had the 1/350 Kortenaer and Karel Doorman Frigates.

John

They will.
I live in den helder u mean proton ?? its the only modelshop i can find in my city..
And the other dude..
that will be our 3th amphibieus ship.
The carrier will be bigger and it would have an deck for harriers..
A bit bigger then urse.
Its stil an amfibious ship but named carrier.. ''-.-

the plan b4 that 1 whas like the wasp class from usa...
so an deck for real planes and an big house and a real hangar deck..
The rotterdam (our 1st amphibious ship will leave then probaly to belgian)
Mitch

[Pieter]

Still, the KLu is trying to buy the non-VTO version of JSF so I don't think a through deck version (b4) is going to happen.

[ASFC]

It is not an Aircraft Carrier. Plenty of other ships have Hanger decks i.e HMNZS Canterbury, RFA Argus, LCS, hell older Cruiser designs from the US and USSR had 'Hanger Decks'. Similarly plenty of ships have seen fixed wing aircraft land on them-RFA Argus, HMS Fearless, Fort (II) Class ships, and are not considered 'Aircraft Carriers'.

Similarly there are plenty of ships that look like Carriers that are not Carriers-the Shimokita LHDs, the DDH 16 Class, those Italian LPD, that new ROK Landing Platform dock, and that simple LHD design from the Meko family. Hell those LHDs that Australia are buying look like they can operate Harriers and F-35B. But they can't, as they (currently) lack the servicing facilities to act like Carriers.

An Aircraft Carrier needs to be a through deck design, with a large Hanger Deck and (Substantial) aviation servicing cababilities, C4I facilities, and carry multple aircraft (upwards of 10-15) and be able to operate multiple aircraft at the same time.

Then there is the fact that I have failed to see a source that calls it a Carrier. The only Dutch source I have seen on a google search called it a 'JLOS-Joint Logistiek Ondersteuningsschip' unless any of that means 'Aircraft Carrier' then I must disagree with it being called as such.

p.s. Carriers tend to carry an offensive Air capability-whether through Helos or Fighters. Do Chinooks and NH-90s in Dutch service carry Hellfires, JDAMs, Sidewinders, ASRAMM, Maverick etc??

[Hippy Ed]

John, I have seen the New Jersey back in 1983 when she was retrofitted with the Tomahawks. Watched the firing and she even blasted her 16 inchers which was quite a sight to see (& experience!) I was out on the Channel Islands off So. Cal which is near the Test range for PT. Mugu. I'd love to see her done in that configuration

[kidcurrie42]

Hiya ASFC, I have to agree with you 100% The USA do not seem to class LHA/LHD's as Carriers, even though they can operate both Fixed and Rotary wingy things.

John

[kidcurrie42]

John, I have seen the New Jersey back in 1983 when she was retrofitted with the Tomahawks. Watched the firing and she even blasted her 16 inchers which was quite a sight to see (& experience!) I was out on the Channel Islands off So. Cal which is near the Test range for PT. Mugu. I'd love to see her done in that configuration

OMG yes indeed, i was on Iowa when she did a demo, and we was in the Launch area with Missouri and Wisconsin, we went to action stations prior to commencement of Desert Storm, i was lucky and was Off watch, so my off watch place was on the upperdeck, OMG you should have seen that sky light up man, one minute it was pitch black and then it was July 4th, Later on the B-52's flew over like big ghostly figures,

I may do all 4 in 80/90's fit and do NJ separate later.

[mitchell300]

It will be an carrier (they say) but if it goes like my pic ore the rotterdam class. then they lie and then its an lpd...
But i really hope on an carrier ore helicopter carrier whit harriers

Mitch

[Hippy Ed]

John, I have seen the New Jersey back in 1983 when she was retrofitted with the Tomahawks. Watched the firing and she even blasted her 16 inchers which was quite a sight to see (& experience!) I was out on the Channel Islands off So. Cal which is near the Test range for PT. Mugu. I'd love to see her done in that configuration

OMG yes indeed, i was on Iowa when she did a demo, and we was in the Launch area with Missouri and Wisconsin, we went to action stations prior to commencement of Desert Storm, i was lucky and was Off watch, so my off watch place was on the upperdeck, OMG you should have seen that sky light up man, one minute it was pitch black and then it was July 4th, Later on the B-52's flew over like big ghostly figures,

I may do all 4 in 80/90's fit and do NJ separate later.

Now that'd be an experience!!

[ASFC]

Oh forgot to add on the Dutch 'Carrier' question-the Dutch Navy does NOT have the escorts required to protect any Carrier, and all the other big ticket items that they have.

If the Dutch ever get a Carrier, it will be 20 years before they have rebuilt their fleet enough to operate it and protect it.

I'll stop flogging the dead horse now!

[kidcurrie42]

Hey ASFC, I see HMAS Melbourne on your to do list, what kit are you intending using, or is it going to be a scratchbuild ? i am looking forward to that one coming.

Happy modeling

John

[ASFC]

Aye, she be scratchbuild, although I am having a look at the Plastic British Carrier kits out there to see if any are worth buying to kit bash (or to just nick the parts more generally!).

[mitchell300]

Oh forgot to add on the Dutch 'Carrier' question-the Dutch Navy does NOT have the escorts required to protect any Carrier, and all the other big ticket items that they have.

If the Dutch ever get a Carrier, it will be 20 years before they have rebuilt their fleet enough to operate it and protect it.

I'll stop flogging the dead horse now!

They do have the protection fleet...
Its right here at build shedule ...
And there are already 2 frigates done for about 2 years..
And they have the tankers to refuel.
They have the crew.
they are going to send in the U have to join the defence thinges..(they are planning)
and my country rox at navy
We stil have an powerfull but small fleet
We have an uber anti air rocket system on every ship we have.
Whit the money we get for defence we have an uber large good fleet.
See the belgians they have more money for navy but less good ships. (all our old junkyard ships )
And cmn whit updates on jfk
Mitch

[kidcurrie42]

Aye, she be scratchbuild, although I am having a look at the Plastic British Carrier kits out there to see if any are worth buying to kit bash (or to just nick the parts more generally!).

Just done my maths and i work it out to be Eagle/Ark Royal kit would need a 4.5cm section removed from length and 1.4 from beam, that will leave you a carrier approx 30.5cm(12") in length, makes you realise just how small a ship that those pilots had to land on in them Skooters and such like.

Whichever route you take it will be good to watch.

Happy modeling

John

[ASFC]

The Dutch Navy cannot protect a Carrier, and two LPDs, and Two JSS/AOR ships with six frigates, only 4 of which are ideally suited to this sort of high end escort work. You are not getting a Carrier, not before 2020 at any rate.

And then there is the fact that one Carrier will not be enough. You need TWO carriers to always maintain one for the fleet, then just imagine the amount of Carrier Aircraft you would have to maintain-enough for each Carrier, plus attrition reserves and enough for an OCU, plus all the fighters that your Air Force will require for all its duties.

So problems for a Dutch Carrier (to summarize)

-Not enough Fighter Jets
-Not enough Escorts (or Subs for that matter-you will need more than 4)
-No design
-No construction experience
-Defence Budget too small
-Manning problems
-Availability problems-would Holland politicans be willing to fund a navy big enough for two Carriers (to maintain one at sea,/ready for sea)
-the 'EU navy' will never happen, not for now anyway, and reliance on NATO to protect any Carrier is not a good way to conduct your Defence planning, even in NATO countries disagree and you don't want these disagreements to leave you with a Carrier and no Escorts.

When Holland solves these problems, I will take a Dutch Carrier seriously. Otherwise you Mitch just sound like a Dutch fan boy who does not take the Political/Financial Conditions or the General condition of your Navy into account.

If you had said 10 or 15 years ago that Holland would get a Carrier, I would believe it more, when Holland was still a European Naval Power. The RNN is not the Naval Power it once was. It has a well balanced and powerful fleet because they pick and choose what to do. You overstretch your fleet and it is not as well balanced or powerful that it should be, because all funds get diverted into maintaining a Carrier capability, often to the detriment of other capabilities, and to the detriment of your Sailors, who will leave if they feel under constant strain and stress without relief (i.e what has been happening in the British Armed Forces).

I'm not opposed to Holland being a Naval power or having a Carrier, but it needs to be done properly otherwise it is just a pointless exercise in building a White Elephant (i.e. look at Thailands Carrier, it has sat in port for most of its life and its Harriers are being retired).

[Gilbert]

Aye, she be scratchbuild, although I am having a look at the Plastic British Carrier kits out there to see if any are worth buying to kit bash (or to just nick the parts more generally!).

Hi,

as HMAS Melbourne is a Majestic class, close from the Colossus class, for your scratchbuilt, would you be interested by buying from L'Arsenal a Colossus hull and the PE set which will be partly usable for your Melbourne. I have just talked to Jacques about it and he is ok with it. Price being 33 �, including shipping to UK.

Cheers

Gilbert

[ASFC]

Yes I would-is this an ongoing offer (as HMAS Melbourne is next years project and money being short etc etc) or do I have to take it on the spot?

[Gilbert]

Not on the spot but don't wait for too long because HMS Colossus hulls are in short supply. On the other hand, L'Arsenal will include the island which would be most usable for your built.

cheers

Gilbert

[mitchell300]

ASFC
By this im inviting u to visit the dockyards in holland.
And visiting Den Helder..
There are plans of building a new class of frigates and xtra from The ruyter class (if the extra the ruyter class happends i donno)
What ur saying of that where not ready?
Dude how long does it take to build an carrier
Think of that.
The navy has not spended alot on new stuff.
They are keeping it until they can build the carrier group
Amsterdam has stil 2 nice ships to put in the carrier group..
I have read this on the dutch navy forum.
Only dutch language
I have speaken several peeps from the navy.
They all say an carrier.
I hope it will be an carrier and not like the new lpd from us that would had an bigger size..
And bigger screws and faster speed and now like it is now..
Remember the days from karel doorman?
The fleet whas same as now if u go look at the Anti air power..

Btw see the new nimitz class and cvf class from uk and us..
the carriers can almost protect theirself.
I quess the designers from the new carrier arnt that stupid to NOT put anti air missiles on the carrier
And btw about helicopters and fighters jets..
We have enough.
About subs?
2 new subs are being made and we have already about 10???
In Den helder we have atm 4 and 1 in dockyard
And defence budget?
Like i said they have handle some money behind the doors to build new ships in the future..
There are many designs for carriers.
But will they trow it out yet?
Nope..
Bcs they arnt actually the good once.
There is actually 1 design..
Cant find it anymore on my pc..
But i really had 1..
And btw...
''-Availability problems-would Holland politicans be willing to fund a navy big enough for two Carriers''
Ehm?? 2 carriers?
It will be 1.
Ok back to topic
Bcs this is gonna take ages.
The future will teach us what happens and if my information peeps had right ore they only heard rumours.
Mitch

BIG EDIT FOUND THE WESITE WHIT PICS AGAIN!
http://www.scheldeshipbuilding.com/enforcer/
http://www.scheldeshipbuilding.com/Sigma.htm

[ASFC]

ASFC
There are plans of building a new class of frigates and xtra from The ruyter class (if the extra the ruyter class happends i donno)

Until they announce that it is just rumours-the only new Frigate your Navy are building are OPVs armed with just Guns and Helicopter for littoral patrol.

What ur saying of that where not ready?
Dude how long does it take to build an carrier
Think of that.

Depends on the country, 10-20 years-look at Cavour, CVF, look how long 10 Carriers in the US have taken.

The navy has not spended alot on new stuff.
They are keeping it until they can build the carrier group
Amsterdam has stil 2 nice ships to put in the carrier group..

4 LCF, 2 (Soon 3) LPDs, 1 AOR, 4 OPVs hell all that remains of your Cold War Navy are your Tripartite Minehunters, and they will need replacing soon. And then you built 8 Frigates and flogged 6 of them for half the price they cost to build. You have replaced most of your navy, spending some serious money, and your Defence Budget is still not at the NATO standard of 2% GDP (that will happen in 2009/10)

I have read this on the dutch navy forum.
Only dutch language
I have speaken several peeps from the navy.
They all say an carrier.

Rumours then. Until it is annoucned as being ordered, it isn't happening. Take a look at BAE. They have just designed a new UCAV Carrier. But with no orders it isn't going to get built!

Remember the days from karel doorman?
The fleet whas same as now if u go look at the Anti air power.

Yes-you had two Cruisers, 12 Destroyers, 8 Submarines and 6 Frigates.

Today you have 6 Frigates, 4 Offshore Patrol Vessels and 4 Submarines. I tell you your fleet will need rebuilding. The minimum fleet you will need is what Italy and Spain have to protect their Carriers-and even then they are the minimum.

Btw see the new nimitz class and cvf class from uk and us..
the carriers can almost protect theirself.

I must disagree with that-if they are so good at self protection why does the USN and RN build expensive DDG (and CGs in USN) to protect those Carriers. Without Escorts your Carriers are white elephants and sitting duck. Why do you think there is so much worry over the cut in Escorts in the RN? Bcause without Escorts CVF is useless.

I quess the designers from the new carrier arnt that stupid to NOT put anti air missiles on the carrier
And btw about helicopters and fighters jets..
We have enough.

No you don't neither the F-16s your Air Force has, nor the F-35As or the Gripens your Air Force is looking at ordering can be used on Carriers. You have 20 Naval Helos-barely enough for the current ships you own.

About subs?
2 new subs are being made and we have already about 10???
In Den helder we have atm 4 and 1 in dockyard

You have 4 Submarines, not 10. Do some research.

And defence budget?
Like i said they have handle some money behind the doors to build new ships in the future..

And break the rules on open Defence budgets? Holland is not China.........

There are many designs for carriers.

And they cost money-look at how much the UK/France have spent on CVF design

There is actually 1 design..
Cant find it anymore on my pc..
But i really had 1..

Thats nice an Computer Generated Graphic does not equal a design-btw you still haven't shown me this Dutch design for an Aircraft Carrier.

''-Availability problems-would Holland politicans be willing to fund a navy big enough for two Carriers''
Ehm?? 2 carriers?
It will be 1.

I was commenting on the fact that to have an effective Carrier Fleet you need TWO Carriers-notice all the serious Carrier operators around the world have two Carriers or want two carriers at least to make sure they always have 1 available. Thats why the French what a second one, why the Spanish and Italians built a second one, and why India are building multiple new Carriers.

Ok back to topic

Why, are you worried you have lost the argument. This is a Carrier thread. Ok it is picture Post but its nice to actually talk about Carriers.

BIG EDIT FOUND THE WESITE WHIT PICS AGAIN!
http://www.scheldeshipbuilding.com/enforcer/
http://www.scheldeshipbuilding.com/Sigma.htm

None of them are Carriers. And Holland Has NOT ordered Sigma-Sigma has been ordered by Morocco and Indonesia.

Whilst I like the Enforcer Series, and LHD design would need a lot of work before you get a Fixed Wing Carrier-refer to my earlier posts.