At 'Em Arizona Fans!

[JohnD]

Sorry, I spelt intriguing wrong in the last post.
The difference in the level of 5-L on the Arizona/Pennsylvania and Nevada/Oklahoma is interesting, was it captains' discretion, or orders from the navy to make it easier to tell sister ships apart from
a distance?
I've noticed in other photos that the Tennessee's mainmast appears to be painted black from the searchlight platform to the spotting top, while the lower half is 5-S or 5-D, personally I think it is 5-S.
Again, is this captains'discretion?

[dsk]

BTW you also spelt spelled wrong.

I recently ordered "PH: The Way it Was" along with "Resurrection" a few days ago. Now I'm really stoked to see them! And yes, I'm sure there are still more as-of-yet undiscovered pictures of the battle fleet from late '41 archived somewhere. We've seen short video clips from that time period as well, so the masters have to be in some box in some crate in some dark nameless warehouse..... perhaps next to the Ark of the Covenant.

[BCBilly]

Steph,
I expect to be in Normandy next June for the dedication of the new leadership monument on Utah beach.

[stef76]

i will be here too on the landing beach this day on arromanche
bye
stef

[mark_sch]

B&D's owner made a post claiming that the Trumpeter barrels were too short, but I haven't been able to verify that.

I did find out that the Arizona's 14 inch barrels were 52' 6" long. I am not good at math but was able to convert that into 1 3/8" long, give or take a 1/32". I measured B&D barrel and is almost dead on my measurement. I state again that my math isn't great but I feel my measurement is correct.
Mark

[JohnD]

There may very well be as yet, undiscovered photos of the fleet, but don't forget the embargo on photographing military equipment that was in place at that time. Or was the embargo on civilian photography only? It would be unusual if the Navy did not keep a photographic record of changes made to their ships, especially the capitol ships. A hidden cache of colour photos of the Arizona taken
in late 1941, what a find that would be! I won't hold my breath waiting for it to be found.

[JohnD]

Re: the colour of the Arizona. In Walter Lord's, Day Of Infamy, as the Japanese aircraft approach Pearl Harbor, there is this sentence "Lieutenant Shiga was attracted by the unusual colour grey of the
warships." Unusual as in they were dark grey and light grey, or unusual because they were blue and light grey?
If anyone reading this forum has not read Day Of Infamy, I doubt if they haven't, I cannot recommend it strongly enough. If you want to know what it was like to be at Pearl Harbor on December 7,
1941, read this book.
John

[dsk]

As we're all aware, the ships were not all the same color. Some were dark grey, some were sea blue, and yes some were still pre-war light grey. As for the Arizona, like you I'm waiting for the missing color photos to show up. I just received the book "PH As It Was" today, and while the photos are small the picture of the Arizona on August 1st clearly shows detail like the fact that the radar platform had not yet been installed. Another photo shows both the Oklahoma and Nevada with the false "bow wave". Another interesting observation is that the 5-L on the forwards superstructure started at different levels on the two ships, just like Pennsylvania and Arizona. Therefore you might be correct that it could have been a means of readily identifying sister ships at a distance. On both the Nevada and Pennsylvania the 5-L began on the superstructure, but on Oklahoma and Arizona it began halfway up the foremast.

[JohnD]

How cool would the Arizona look with 5-S hull and superstructure, 5-L topmasts AND a Measure 5 false bow wave! You never know, it may have been planned for!
John

[SeanF]

As we're all aware, the ships were not all the same color. Some were dark grey, some were sea blue, and yes some were still pre-war light grey. As for the Arizona, like you I'm waiting for the missing color photos to show up. I just received the book "PH As It Was" today, and while the photos are small the picture of the Arizona on August 1st clearly shows detail like the fact that the radar platform had not yet been installed. Another photo shows both the Oklahoma and Nevada with the false "bow wave". Another interesting observation is that the 5-L on the forwards superstructure started at different levels on the two ships, just like Pennsylvania and Arizona. Therefore you might be correct that it could have been a means of readily identifying sister ships at a distance. On both the Nevada and Pennsylvania the 5-L began on the superstructure, but on Oklahoma and Arizona it began halfway up the foremast.

I don't think Nevada's started on the superstructure; it's just that her lowest foremast platform has a very prominent splinter shield, in addition to being significantly lower than Oklahoma's (note that Oklahoma's fore and mainmast platforms are higher than Nevada's, and also note that the 5-L on both ships starts at these platforms - hence, Nevada's 5-L starting a little below funnel height, and Oklahoma's just above funnel height.) Another item of note is that, grainy though that photo is, it is clear that Nevada has the cage yardarms and Oklahoma has straight ones. (Already knew this, but here's side-by-side visual proof from only a month prior to the attack.)

I had also noticed the lack of radar platform in that shot of Arizona. So, there's another fit option: 5-D paint, no platform, with range clock.

- Sean F.

[dsk]

A subsequent study of the pictures confirms that you're right about the 5-L on the Nevada. At a distance it looked like the superstructure, but the more familiar up-close pictures show it to have been the platform on the foremast.

And yes, regarding the Arizona, I believe the radar platform was apparently added while in drydock following the collision with the Oklahoma (Tracy please correct me if I'm wrong), since the August '41 pic shows it wasn't there, yet the November '41 picture in drydock appears to show it. Of course that also was the narrow window of opportunity to begin painting her in 5-S if she indeed ever was. That one tiny little picture in the book reveals so much that it's really driving me nuts to know that nobody's got a decent up-close picture from late '41.

[SeanF]

Hmm... there's an unpleasant thought... the radar platform only applies to the period when her color scheme is in doubt...

I don't know, though - Pennsylvania had her platform *and* radar already installed by the time of the attack. I suppose they could have just taken the opportunity to install the parts they had on-hand while Arizona was in drydock for collision damage repair... or it could have been done at the same time when the range clocks were removed sometime before November 3 (you'd probably need a tall crane to get those things down anyway...)

According to the photo credits in the back of the book, all the shots we've been discussing are credited to the National Archives. The Preface mentions needing to trim down the number of photos to fit the size of the book. I don't know about them being in color, but there are surely more great shots out there somewhere - or even mediocre shots that are nevertheless good enough to shed light on some issue or another.

- Sean F.

[JohnD]

The whole thing is driving me nuts, I guess it boils down to personal taste. Do you build for complete accuracy, or do you build and paint the model the way you want it to look. Even if I'm proven
wrong, I'm still going ahead and painting the ship 5-S and 5-L, with red turret tops. I build for my own enjoyment, not to please others. If someone doesn't agree with the way it is finished, well, they
can build their own model to their own satisfaction.
John

[dsk]

Well, like I said earlier I gave up worrying about it as well and went for the closest pre-mixed dark grey I could find, only to find my chosen paint color dried to a definite blue-grey instead. So I guess my model is painted in Measure 5-SD.

[kb466]

I am gathering aftermarket items for my 1/200 Arizona build and I am wondering what people think of the KA Models/Mk1 wooden deck as opposed to the Nautilus offering. Examining fuzzy pictures off the net, I have to say that the KA/Mk1 set looks better to my eyes, only because it because it looks like there is some sort of color differential between the planks, while on the Nautilus version, there is wavy grain in the wood cutting across the planks-- I don't know how you would get rid of that short of painting it. However, I can't tell from the pictures which deck fits better, is more prototypical, etc.

Then there is also the fact that the KA/MK1 set comes with extensive photo etch. Again, it looks good in the pictures, but I am wondering if anyone has any experience with the KA/Mk1 set. I want to get a wooden deck and a photo etch set and I am wondering if I am better off getting the KA/Mk1 set or buying the Nautilus set and waiting for the White Ensign photo etch set. Any advice?
Thanks,
Bill M.

[JCRAY]

I would WAIT till i could see the KA MK1 stuff. I have their Repulse deck, it looks great to me! I'm waiting to see what Scale decks is going to offer. hth

[kb466]

Thanks for the response. I wasn't even aware of Scale Decks. After I read you post, I googled their website. What I saw looked awfully nice and I see they are soon to release a 1/200 Arizona deck. So now I have another option to consider.
Bill M.

[GreyGhost]

Hello everyone, I just got back from a trip to Hawaii and while there had the privelage to visit the USS Arizona Memorial. I also had the honor of meeting three extraordinary gentlemen that were present on that horrific day. They were Alfred Rodrigues, Alexander Dyga and Bob Kinzler. They shared some memories of their time while stationed on Oahu during 1941. It was a very moving experience and I would be lieing if I said I didn't get choked up or have a tear come to my eye throughout the entire experience. While stepping onto the Memorial for the first time it is hard not to imagine the devastation that took place on Battleship Row and on board the USS Arizona in particular. I have an even greater appreciation for all the men and women that experienced went through that nightmare. I thought I would share a couple of photos with you all of my experience. The first is of the three amazing men that were there that day with me in the center of my sister and brother-in-law. Mr Rodrigues made sure my sister was standing behind him for the photo

[mark_sch]

Very cool pictures!!!!!
Mark

[stef76]

thanks for the photos!!
stef