The Ship Model Forum

Thanks, Maarten! No rush, I appreciate that we all have other obligations and work in life. What we discuss here is a hobby.

This issue just has been a topic on my mind for some time. Every time I open a submarine kit, for the most part I see a lot of decals I won't use, and the vital set of draft markings are missing. That and the fact that some submarine kits lack the ballast tank flood grates on the bottom of the hull are my two minor but annoying perennial irritants. No ballast tank flood openings, no submergence. No submergence, no submarine.

If I can help you further with details, please let me know.

Thanks again!!

Tom

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Tom Dougherty
Researcher for: "Project Azorian”
https://www.amazon.com/Azorian-Raising-K-129-Michael-White/dp/B008QTU7QY
"Project Azorian: The CIA and the Raising of the K-129" Book
https://www.usni.org/press/books/project-azorian

In response to what someone said about the draft marks. They said that the numbers are 6 inches tall and one foot apart. In fact the numbers shows 6 inches of height and the space from the top of one number to the bottom of the next number shows 6 inches as well. So from the bottom of one number to the bottom of the number above it shows 1 foot. Now you have to take into consideration that the hull is round therefore the numbers actually get taller along with the space in between them. SO the numbers will look stretch out the future you move away from the center of the hull. In the photo below of a Los Angeles class sub you will notice that the lowest number is smaller in height than the number at the top.

Duane

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Harry S. Truman CVN 75, George W. Bush CVN 77
Makin Island LHD 8, Oak Hill LSD 51
Vincennes CG 49, Port Royal CG 72
Cole DDG 67, The Sullivans DDG 68
Bainbridge DDG 96, Jason Dunham DDG 109
Arthur W. Radford DD 968, Kidd DDG 993
Chicago CG 11

Thanks for that information and clarification. I was unclear when I originally wrote it, but the intent was the same. 6 inch high numbers with the bottoms one foot apart. Since the numbers demarcated feet and are six inches in height (nominally), then corresponding parts (i.e.bottoms) would be one foot apart

As for the “stretching” necessary to compensate for the hull diameter dimension, that was mentioned above by Maarten as well. It would be extreme at the upper part of the hull, as in your photo. In 1/350 scale, personally I am not sure how much I would worry about that. Right now, very few kits come with any draft markings at all, so even a quasi-accurate set with the correct numbers would be welcome. Although I like details, not at the rivet counter stage myself.

Again, I do appreciate your comments and insights!

Tom

_________________
Tom Dougherty
Researcher for: "Project Azorian”
https://www.amazon.com/Azorian-Raising-K-129-Michael-White/dp/B008QTU7QY
"Project Azorian: The CIA and the Raising of the K-129" Book
https://www.usni.org/press/books/project-azorian

I posted this on the CASL Dock and Harbor Equipment forum several days ago, but nobody has replied. Perhaps some 41 for Freedom enthusiast can help.

I have the Takom 1/350 kit of the floating drydock ABSD-1. ASBD-7 was rebuilt into AFDB-7 to service Polaris/Poseidon subs at Holy Loch. The kit has plain dock walls with nothing outboard of the walls, but at Holy Loch the dock has an added framework and widened decks on top of the walls. This Navsource photo shows them:



Are there any plans that show the added framework and decks?

Thanks!

Peter

Hi Peter,

Interesting idea you have for building this! Unfortunately I don't have any plans that might help. First please note that this Submarine dock was built of only four sections/pontoons, not the entire set of ten of the Takom kit. Reference: https://www.aboutsubs.com/los-alamos.htm

However, I believe the single picture you show already reveals a lot of measurements, that can be related to the dock itself. As you already have the kit, you can easily measure the length and the height of the dock sidewalls (four sections). Now onto analyzing the photo:

Let's see: there are twelve Y-shaped vertical beams, evenly spaced. So the distance between these is 1/12 of the length of the dock wall. Right?
Then there are two horizontal girders, evenly spaced along the height of the dock wall, so the height divided in three. Okay?
Looking at the end field, these horizontal girders seem to run diagonally to the end of the dock wall. I would assume 45degrees. That would mean that the width of the top deck is equal to the distance between the Y-beams. Are you still with me? This will give you already a very close set of measurements of the contraption.

Now it will come to the detailing, but that will be on a lower order of magnitude, as you already have the overall pattern. I see someone els tried to build it in the past, I think that with the help of the Takom kit you can do much better.
https://bob.plord.net/Ships/Period4/UnitedStates/ServiceCraft/LosAlamos.html

I hope this helps you forward -- unless someone else turns up with an official plan set!

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"I've heard there's a wicked war a-blazing, and the taste of war I know so very well
Even now I see the foreign flag a-raising, their guns on fire as we sail into hell"
Roger Whittaker +9/13/2023

Thanks, Maarten! Your analysis is spot-on. I've already figured out the basic layout of the framework, but I was hoping for some plans I could scale to 1/350 and lay the parts on. Even with just the four sections, that's an intimidating amount of Evergreen shapes to precisely cut and keep track of.

It would also be good to get a close-up photo of one section, or just one Y beam configuration, to see what dimensions and sections the various girders had. But like the whole layout, an eyeball guess will be close enough for gov't work.

I've also noticed that the new configuration omits some details that are present in the kit, most notably the AA gun mounted on each wall section. There are also small cabins that overhang the tops of the walls, which had to be removed to widen the deck. I don't plan to go overboard for absolute accuracy and detail; adding the outer framework and wider deck will create the effect of the new dock.

As an aside, I've since discovered that the original ABSD-4 and later had the exterior framework from the beginning. Navsource shows the dock as an ABSD-4 Class dock, and I found a wartime photo of ABSD-4 with the framework.

Yes, I understand your considerations very well, I would have the same.

However, that overhead picture from the first reference I called will provide you with a wealth of clues, what to model or wat to neglect. Those two large beam cranes already will be a huge challenge to build, they might even require some specially designed PE.

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"I've heard there's a wicked war a-blazing, and the taste of war I know so very well
Even now I see the foreign flag a-raising, their guns on fire as we sail into hell"
Roger Whittaker +9/13/2023

Yes, that overhead shot is a gold mine indeed. Other than that one, and a few taken by submariners from inside the dock, all the other photos I've found have been taken from the water.

In the overhead photo, Theodore Roosevelt is centered in the dock, so it must be a relatively early photo. At some point after the Ethan Allens and later classes came online, the dock was refitted with two rows of keel blocks to handle all the different classes, without needing to rearrange the blocks in between subs. Just based on length, I surmise that one set was for the GW class, and the other set handled all the later classes. The differences between the later ones could probably have been handled by stacking different amounts of wooden blocks on top of the steel supports.

The Takom kit includes two cranes, whose bases straddle the width of the wall. It may be that the original cranes were simply relocated to the outer edge of the wider top deck. Or if they are larger cranes, that may be a detail I'm willing to overlook

Maarten, that's a pretty awesome photo! Where did you come across that?

Jacob

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Under Construction:
1/350 Typhoon
1/350 Skate
1/350 USS Nautilus
1/350 Tang
1/350 November
1/350 Hotel II
1/350 Alfa
1/350 George Washington
1/72 Type VIIC

It was in the first reference I mentioned, Jacob!
https://www.aboutsubs.com/los-alamos.htm

To Peter O.: Are you planning to model also a sub in the dock, and which one then? I'm curious!


Of course you do as you choose, but to my eye the cranes of Los Alamos are very different from those in the Takom kit! It already starts with their bases...

_________________
"I've heard there's a wicked war a-blazing, and the taste of war I know so very well
Even now I see the foreign flag a-raising, their guns on fire as we sail into hell"
Roger Whittaker +9/13/2023

Yes, I'm planning to display a sub in the dock. I'll probably go with a GW class, since the Abraham Lincoln was built at Portsmouth NSY, near where I used to live.

Good choice of course. Mikromir in fact now provides al the subsequent classes as well, I believe, the missing Ethan Allen was added the latest.
When you choose to model it with the propeller (screw I must say, I know) in the open, be aware there are splendid replacements available today, the Mikoromir one is somewhat eeh... lacking.

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"I've heard there's a wicked war a-blazing, and the taste of war I know so very well
Even now I see the foreign flag a-raising, their guns on fire as we sail into hell"
Roger Whittaker +9/13/2023

Yes, I've been building MikroMir subs for years, and their screws are pretty basic. The 3D printed screws from Mulsanne Mike on eBay are far superior!

My other choice would be Ethan Allen, for her (his?) Dominic Frigate Bird launch. However, I'm not sure that she was based at Holy Loch. Globalsecurity.org says "After returning to the Atlantic from Operation Dominic, Ethan Allen commenced her first deterrent patrol in late June 1962 and eventually completed 57 deterrent patrols before conversion to an SSN in September 1980.", but I've been unable to find any corroboration for this statement.

Hi Peter,

I understand SSBN 610 Thomas A. Edison, an Ethan Allen boat, was the first SSBN being detached to Holy Loch until Sept. 1966. Wasn't she ever docked in Los Alamos? Or was she already returned to the US before the drydock was commisioned? Also Sam Houston (609), John Marshall (611) and Thomas Jefferson (618) had their time at Holy Loch between 1963 and 1966.

_________________
"I've heard there's a wicked war a-blazing, and the taste of war I know so very well
Even now I see the foreign flag a-raising, their guns on fire as we sail into hell"
Roger Whittaker +9/13/2023