Calling all Fletcher-class (DD-445) fans

[Tony Bunch]

Hi Guys,
I'm almost finished with all of the deck matt decal-ing. Then it's back to getting the superstructure finished/painted and installed. I'm still contemplating adding on the GMM watertight doors right on top of the already molded in place doors from Tamiya. The Trumpeter midships deckhouse doors have all been removed, as they were different from Tamiya's. This undoubtedly need to be addressed. Alkos, I'm trying to decide whether or not to use the kit mast, as it bends quite easily. Rich D added stays going fore and aft, and that is what he has recommended.

One of my fellow San Diego IPMS ship modeler's, Mr. Rich D, has really been ribbing me to finish my 1/350 Missouri and take it to the Nats. My dio with the BB/DD is my end goal, (not to mention all of the other ship/display ideas swimming around in this quagmyre I have that is my brain), so whether I finish Missouri or Renshaw first shouldn't bother me too much. Now that TamiyaCon has been re-scheduled till this Fall, the pressure to finish has been relieved somewhat. I want to take one or both to the Nats this year, as I can carry a large display up the coast in my car; not worrying about the model transporting headaches when going to Nats that are much further away.
This is my easiest chance in that regard.
I'll post some pics soon. How are your DD's coming along?

Rick,
Posting pics is really helpful to the other modeler's. I think this is a method of communication unparalleled(sp)?
Be well gents, Tony

[MartinJQuinn]

Ken,
I assume you mean the March 1943 photo of the Fletcher at Purvis Bay that is available at several websites and books. Yes the Fletcher has a 20mm added to the top of the pilot house ... pretty common on the early round bridge Fletcher's. As best I can tell ... this means that she had a total of 7 20mm guns plus the two twin 40mm mtgs at that time.

Rick,

Any idea when the 20mm on top of the pilot house was added?

Thanks,

[Rick E Davis]

When was the bridge top 20mm gun added to the Fletcher? Well ... sometime between Sep 42 and Mar 43. To be serious, I don't know exactly when or by who. I have not come across any evidence of when the Navy started to add this gun to that location. Since, the appearance of extra 20mm guns all over ships on the frontline in the Pacific ... and that it took awhile before this mod was done either by the ship builders or by the Navy Yards ... my guess is it was a local idea. Heck ... the USN Ship Design Mafia had actually reduced the number of 20mm's on the Fletcher's to 4 from 6 as compensation for adding a twin 40mm gun mtg to the fantail (making the standard two twin 40mm's). There was an urgent need to increase the AA armament on USN ships at the time and the one weapon they could install locally was the 20mm and ANY open deck space was a candidate. The earliest confirmed photo by date is, if I remember right, was in January 43. But, photos before January for the first Fletchers in the SW Pacific are rare (even exist?). The USS DeHaven had two 20mm's on the bridge roof, so there was no standard.

[Tony Bunch]

Hi Guys,
The main deck and 01 non-skid areas are now finished.
I found that the L'Arsenal deck matt decals will easily adhere to a flat finish. Before starting this procedure, I gloss coated the entire area preparatotry to decalling for fear of some massive silvering. After doing teh majority of the decals, I had to fill in the Tamiya main deck midships 2x20mm through-holes as the 14-40 version had this area slightly forward. Alas, some filling and re-painting was necessary on the midships main deck area. I did not want to wait to gloss-coat this one area to let it dry, so I just added the remaining non-skid decals without being glossed first. Worked okay.


more sooner, Tony

[MartinJQuinn]

Tony,

Coming along very nicely!! Keep the updates coming.

I've almost got one of my Fletcher's done. This is the 1/350 BWN Johnston, being built as Cowell:




Not a bad kit, but the directions are a little vague in places. I'll be glad to get her done - this model has been kicking around unfinished for the past four years!

Since this picture was taken, the model was (lightly) rigged. She just needs a final coat of flat. Once that is done, I need to touch up the acrylic gel water - I really did a lousy job of mounting this and the BWN Gearing on their bases - the acrylic get came up too high on the hulls.

I picked up some L'Arsenal figures...I'm thinking of trying them out on this kit to see how they look.

[Tony Bunch]

Hi Guys,
Not a whole lot of progress lately on DD499, but the resin a/m accessories do take some time. I finished 2 twin 40's and forgot to make the third! These are L'Arsenal ones.
The Mk37 director took a few hours to do. This is a L'Arsenal Mk37 director. I ruined 3 screens before getting the 4th one correct. Good thing I only needed one......for now.
The 5"38 single mounts are from Corsair Armada and the barrels with blast bags are from L'Arsenal. I used the brass barrels with the twin 5"38 mounts on Missouri, so I have plenty of the resin barrels left. Using the L'Arsenal resin barrels with Corsair Armada gun mlounts was no big deal; just a little, "massaging", here and there.
I like the Corsair Armada mounts fine, but the L'Arsenal barrels were better.
Much to do........
Here are some pics I took this evening with all of the loose sub-assemblies in place..........




gotta work tomorrow.....
Tony

[RNfanDan]

Not to divert attention from all the great detailing and paint schemes information, but...I need a quick primer on which 1:700-scale kit to buy. I am looking for a hi-bridge "round" earlier Fletcher-class kit. I already have the Trumpeter Sullivans in the later lo-bridge type.

Before I ask about whose kit is best, let me set forth my needs:
1) Scale accuracy above ALL else--not 1:719, 1:688, etc.;
2) Structure & fittings accuracy, esp. torpedo tubes and directors (I don't want any "Midship Benhams");
3) Fewest known manufacturing defects (depressions, seams, ejector-pin marks, etc);
4) I will use aftermarket 5" turrets and/or barrels, if necessary
5) I can make my own replacement masts, if needed
6) I can replace poor small AA, SL, and radars w/PE or better castings.
7) I do NOT want a resin model.
I hope this helps, if any of these will help me pick the right (or closest) kit. I'm stocking ahead, so if someone knows of an upcoming re-tool or new offering, I am glad to put off buying for awhile to get the best I can.

Thanks in advance

[Rick E Davis]

The answer may hinge on what configuration of your Round Bridge Fletcher you want. The Tamiya 1/700 "Fletcher" kit is OK except for the 5" gun mounts being a little too small. These can be replaced by several sources today. However, the kit can only be built to a very few "EARLY" commissioned Fletcher's OUT-OF-THE-BOX ... those that had the early high round tub between the #53 and #54 mounts. Either in the as delivered one twin 40mm mount (DD-445-448 and 465) or with two twin 40mm (one twin added to the fantail - DD-445, 447 and 448). If you find a quad 1.1" gun mount, then you can model the first three Bath built Fletchers (DD-449 thru 451). With some work the kit can be modified to any number of other configurations. The Skywave kits are nice in some places, but getting long in the tooth. If you want to, you can kit-bash with parts from the Skywave kits to make building a given configuration. Or you can use the Tamiya Square Bridge Fletcher kit to do the same thing and likely with less fitting concerns. If you want a late war Anti-kamikaze 14-40mm Round Bridge Fletcher ... kit bash with the Trumpeter kit.

[Tony Bunch]

Hi Guys,

Regarding the 1/700 Fletcher's......I'd say get the Tamiya kits, (sq bridge and round bridge), and go from there. The Trumpeter kit is the most recent release in 1/700........but I'd still start with the Tamiya kit. Maybe buy all three and use the best of what is available. I'd figure this way; the more kits you have to start with, the better chances of not having to scratch-build some stuff.
Good time to be a ship modeler!
We're seeing to this!
I'll get something up soon.........
Be well Gents, and.............. .....Fletcher's Rock!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[RNfanDan]

If you want a late war Anti-kamikaze 14-40mm Round Bridge Fletcher ... kit bash with the Trumpeter kit.

The Trumpy is a square/low-bridge Sullivans, but I don't know much about this class of DDs yet. It is my understanding however, that there were changes in both configuration and dimensions, as the class evolved in design. Given this, will the Sullivans kit require alterations other than adding guns and modifying the actual bridge/wheelhouse?

My purpose for collecting the earlier round-bridge, is to illustrate the two very basic types alongside one another in a display. The late-war units, I suspect, would be laden with AA and allsorts radars, which is okay so long as the basic form differences aren't detracted from. What say...?
(And thanks for your informative response!)

[MartinJQuinn]

There were two basic types of Fletchers - early round (high) bridge and later (low) square bridge.

Very early round bridge:


Late round bridge:


Early square bridge:


Late square bridge (love this picture!):


The square bridge was an attempt to lower the height and top weight on the class, while also giving better all around visibility for the bridge crew. As the war went on, the number of AA guns increased, until some late war Fletcher's deleted one set of torpedo tubes and carried an "Emergency AA fit" of 14 40mm, as Rick said.

The Tamiya Fletcher, OOB, represents an early, round bridge Fletcher. The Tamiya Cushing, OOB, represents a mid-war square bridge. If the Trumpter kit is the same as the 1/350 version, then OOB it can be built as either a mid-war square bridge or the late war square bridge with the Emergency AA fit. Skywave also made a 1/700 mid-war square bridge Fletcher, but IIRC, the Tamiya kit surpasses that in quality.

From the sounds of it, you want to get the Fletcher and the Sullivans, and build an early round bridge and a very late war square bridge. For more information, pick up a copy of Jeff Herne's Fletcher, Sumner, Gearing-class Destroyers book. Also, if you can find it, Alan Raven had released a book on Fletcher's that is similar in size to the AOTS books.

[Rick E Davis]

As a quick primer on the Fletcher class, go to the Destroyerhistory.org website. This page has at least one picture of each Fletcher built ... http://www.destroyerhistory.org/fletche ... raits.html ... there ended up being 58 of the Early Round Bridge units built and 117 of the Improved Square Bridge units. The DestroyerHistory.org website has a lead in page for the Fletcher class that if you go through everything is quite interesting ... http://www.destroyerhistory.org/fletche ... index.html. Since they don't have ALL the photos of the Fletchers that exist, then go to the Navsource.org and the Navy Historical Center website ... http://www.history.navy.mil/branches/org11-2.htm ... and look-up individual ships that interest you. More information can be found in various books as well, if you really get the bug for this class. If you sat down and wanted to build an example kit of every configuration of Fletcher's there were ... I gave up counting but it has to be more than 3 dozen.

It would be interesting to put an early Fletcher class with The Sullivans to show now much the class changed through the war. The first unit in the class commissioned was the USS Nicholas (DD449) with the original planned quad 1.1" gun ... which none of the Fletcher class kits include out-of-the-box, but are available in other kits and as "Equipment Sets". But as I said, the Tamiya Fletcher kit would fit the bill once you have a quad 1.1" gun. Replacing the 5" gun mounts is up to your tastes after looking at the photos and looking at the kit's parts.

[PeteM]

I just won the 1/700 Skywave 2 kit Fletcher set on E-Bay and it came today. It looks to me like the parts match the photo of the late round bridge USS Terry that Martin posted above. If that helps any.

[MartinJQuinn]

Here's where I'm at with the Tamiya 1/350 Fletcher. I'm building her as she was on November 13, 1942. I have seen some speculation that she might have been Ms18 at this point, so I decided to go ahead and paint her in this scheme...which means I'm probably wrong, but I like the way it looks.



Turrets and the Mk 37 director are from L'Arsenal. Majority of the PE is from the Eduard set for the Fletcher, with the K-gun racks and depth charge racks from an extra Tom's PE set. Railings will be from GMM. Flag bags are white metal extras from YMW. 20mm are right out of the box (and pretty nice), shields will be from Eduard. The only thing I can't confirm is when the 7th 20mm was added on top of the bridge, so I'm leaving it off.

Trying to finish her for our local IPMS show in April - the theme is "Made in NJ", which Fletcher was. Great kit, I've really enjoyed building her.

[Rick E Davis]

Martin,

I like your Fletcher. The L'Arsenal Turrets and Mk-37 look nice. Yes the Camo for the Fletcher on that date is up in the air. Actually from when she left the yard on 30 August 42 right after getting the fantail 40mm installed ... until early 1943 ... http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/imag ... h53916.jpg ... I have seen no verified photos of the Fletcher. From group photos of the "Cactus Force" of Fletchers it appears that they were Ms-21 by late 1942 - early 1943. The Ms-18 scheme is one not well documented or discussed much until recently and I find interesting.

I can not make out from your picture ... with my poor eyesight and no clue how I can blow up this photo ... did you use D/C racks or the "post" (Depth Charge on a stick :-}) storage method?? The Fletcher didn't get the standard racks, actually the double capacity version ( ... http://www.navsource.org/archives/05/0544518.jpg ... of course you will need to cut and paste this link to view ), until her July/Aug 1943 upgrade to the 5 twin 40mm standard the best I know.

Pete,

The older version of the Skywave Fletcher kit (two to a box) was actually the 3 twin 40mm mount version of the class. The "newer" re-worked kit (USS Callaghan) had both the Round Bridge and the Square Bridge, plus the bridge that that JMSDF Fletchers had and was configured to build the 5 twin 40mm version.

[PeteM]

Pete,

The older version of the Skywave Fletcher kit (two to a box) was actually the 3 twin 40mm mount version of the class. The "newer" re-worked kit (USS Callaghan) had both the Round Bridge and the Square Bridge, plus the bridge that that JMSDF Fletchers had and was configured to build the 5 twin 40mm version.

I'm a little new to the Fletcher game. Any chance you could give me an idea of which were the 3 twin 40 ships? Hull #'s are fine.

[Rick E Davis]

There were about 60 Fletcher's ... an exact number gets to be difficult to define ... with the 6-40mm configuration. The two twin 40mm (one on the superstructure between #53 and #54 5" gun mounts and one on the fantail) became a standard in practice about August of 1942. About 40 ships had this configuration at some point ... but only about 12 went to the Pacific War Zone with it. The USS Guest (DD-472) was the first known Fletcher with the waist twin 40mm mounts (just those two 40mm mounts and is a story all by herself on the non-standard 20mm layout) completed to that standard 5 Feb 1943. In Feb or March 1943 the three twin 40mm and either 10 (Sq Bridge ships) or 11-20mm (Rd Bridge) configuration was made the standard. USS Beale (DD-471) is the earliest that I have found to be so equiped ... finished by 9 March 1943 ... she was delivered with two twin 40mm and was converted to the 6-40mm standard. But there were many Fletcher's appearing to that standard shortly afterwards starting in late in March. The fleet did NOT like the fantail installation so I suspect a little extra effort went into changing builders construction and yard mod's. So many of the 40 ships delivered with the 4-40mm configuration were taken in hand by the Navy Yards and converted to the 6-40mm or something else. The demand for more 40mm AA guns resulted in a brief proposal to keep the fantail twin 40mm and have an 8-40mm standard ... the USS Converse (DD-509) actually had this configuration in the Pacific, but when it was done and at what Yard is a question mark. There is some evidence that the USS Bache (DD-470) also had this configuration ... but I have found no photo of her so armed and leave that as a maybe. The interesting thing is that both of these ships were commissioned at about the same time on the East Coast.

Then in June 1943 the five twin 40mm gun mounts with 7-20mm was made the new standard AA fit. So once again the brakes went on and most of the newly commissioned ships with 6-40mm were back in the yard after training and trials to be upgraded to the 10-40mm standard. Again only about 2 dozen Fletcher's ... trust me this is not an exact number, I'm still trying to figure this out ... actually served in the Pacific with the 6-40mm configuration. Also, there were 3 of the Catapult equiped and/or rather PLANNED to be equiped (DD-476-478), that had a non-standard 6-40mm configuration with the fantail twin 40mm instead of the superstructure centerline twin 40mm. The rest were converted to the 10-40mm standard before getting to the Pacific. What is kind of interesting about the switch over to the 10-40mm standard, there were ships still being delivered with 6-40mm guns as late as August /September 1943 by some yards and it wasn't until about Feb 1945 that the LAST Fletcher was brought up to this standard. All Fletcher's commissioned starting with the USS Owen (DD-536) and afterwards (and many, but not all, back into early August before her), were to the 10-40mm standard. Known Fletcher's to have served in the Pacific with the 6-40mm included ... DD-472-475, DD-500, DD-511, DD-513, DD-515-517, DD-518-519, DD-545, DD-570-575, DD-587-588, DD-629, DD-659-661. The last three of these to convert over to the 10-40mm standard were USS Walker (DD-517), USS Daly (DD-519) and USS Kidd (DD-661) in January/February 1945. There are some of the ships that completed to the 6-40mm standard that are difficult to determine when they were upgraded to the 10-40mm standard ... so there could be others with Pacific War Zone service.

A good way to see the progression of these ships is to look at a list by date of commission as done by Destroyerhistory.org ... http://www.destroyerhistory.org/fletche ... ydate.html ... since these ships were NOT commissioned by hull number. The 6-40mm configured ships started to come out of the yards in March 1943. The 10-40mm configured ships started to come out of the yards in July 1943. In each case there were overlaps in both types being delivered at the same time by different yards. With this information you can go in and look at the pictures of ships you maybe interested about in sources like Navsource.org, DestroyerHistory.org and the US Navy History Center websites to get an idea of what these ships looked like at some given time period. Remember, the shapes of splinter shields and tubs were different for each builder and Navy Yard doing work on them, checking photos will make your build more accurate.

[RNfanDan]

GEESH, Rick--

Your informative post reads not unlike that of a classic T-bird, 'Vette, or Mustang enthusiast, writing a buyer's guide!

I admire your depth of knowledge...

BTW, what is the basis of the "53 and 54" (etc.), when referencing Fletcher-class turrets---a correlation to transverse hull frames?

[Rick E Davis]

Sorry ... #53 and #54 refer to the 5" gun mounts in sequence. #51 is the first from the bow and then they follow in sequence on back. The Brits use "A", "B", "C", etc terminology. I started using it because I got tired of typing "between the third and fourth 5"/38cal gun mounts".

Pete, well have fun and pick a Fletcher that you think would be interesting to model. Some like a particular ship because of a personal relationship (family member served on it) or historical importance. As for historical ships that were 6-40mm configured and Type I Round Bridge like the early Skywave kit you have ... many of the "Little Beavers" DESRON-23 ships were . DD-570-572, 511, and 512 all were 6-40mm configured for long periods during the war.

[PeteM]

Thanks again Rick and after doing a little investigation have decided to do a couple of the DesRon 23 ships. First the Charles Ausburne (DD-570) and then the Spence (DD-512). They were both part of the 'Little Beavers' and the Ausburne was Arleigh Burke's flagship. I've discovered, however that apparently the Spence did have the additional 40's installed while enroute to the south Pacific from the east coast:

http://www.navsource.org/archives/05/512.htm

I'm going to take a crack at doing the necessary alterations to the kit. We'll see how it goes.