Calling all Royal Navy Hunt-class (1939) fans

mike mccabe · Post by **mike mccabe** » Sat Jul 14, 2007 7:45 am

ar wrote: Have fun, just a hobby, not to be taken seriously.

Absolutely, it's just a bit of a guessing game, no need to get so upset.

Mike

Laurence Batchelor · Post by **Laurence Batchelor** » Sat Jul 14, 2007 8:39 am

Another thing in Kimberley's favour is found on p177 of the Kelly's book.

Again Langtree states it was her which embarked Churchill to observe the landings and no other destroyer.
The weight of evidence that it was Kimberley keeps growing, unless they are all perpetuating the same error from an original source?

He does raise this new point, however, "...Churchill who wanted to observe the landings, but he complained that Kimberley's orders kept him too far out of the action.
Conversely, the Chiefs of Staff felt that he had gone too near the coast".

Did he pay a visit to another ship in order to get a closer view?
Food for thought.

ar · Post by ar » Sat Jul 14, 2007 8:44 am

I has been such a great week, that in a few minutes I'm going out to spend $10 on a bottle of "Rebel Yell" whisky.

Laurence Batchelor · Post by **Laurence Batchelor** » Sat Jul 14, 2007 9:11 am

The only other destroyers which were heavily involved in Operation DRAGOON were the late war T-class.

After having looked at some very good bridge photos of HMS Tumult after her final fitting out in 1943
(Probably also in your OtoZ Ensign 6), the Churchill photo does NOT look like it was taken on a late-war T-class either.

The only other things which dont not sit well with me on the Churchill photo is firsly the very top of the bridge face.

Every photo I can see face on of a JKN bridge never shows these reinforcing flanges near the very top edge.
This of course could be some sort of modification carried out when the windscreen was removed (it was summer in the Med after all!),
However I cannot find any evidence for this and also the 1948 photos of Kimberley laid up do not show this was present, but a windscreen was.

Secondly the gentlemen sitting down behind the binoculars, isn't he positioned where some bridge equipment should be?
Certainly the plans show something should be around that position,
but again was the bridge modified and this equipment relocated between the 1939/40 'as fiiteds' and August 1944 when this photo was taken?

A final point the early Warship Supplement article on the K-class, which gives details of their movements, also confirms Kimberley took Churchill to the invasion beaches on the 15th of August 1944.
It further states a day later on the 16th she carried Cunningham & General Maitland-Wilson to observe the beaches.
I think somewhere in my database I'm sure I have a photo of Cunningham sitting on the bridge of a destroyer alongside another high ranking officer.
If so I'll see if I can find it as it could be the same ship in question.

Laurence Batchelor · Post by **Laurence Batchelor** » Sat Jul 14, 2007 9:31 am

No I was mistaken the Cunningham photo I have is of him sitting next to Air Vice-Marshall Sir Charles Portal on the bridge of an ML after visiting the coasts of Normandy, shame.

Checked Roskill which details DRAGOON extensively, however, surprisingly no mention of Kimberley embarking Churchill.
It does mention Cunningham made a signal from her on the 14th at 6:18pm.
(See Roskill Vol.3 Pt.II p93. 2004 ).

Rohwer (2005) says "In the afternoon of the 15th August Prime Minister Churchill visits the landing fleet on board the destroyer Kimberley." p350.

Again the evidential weight is becoming compelling.

ar · Post by ar » Sat Jul 14, 2007 10:24 am

Your last two notes are so enjoyable that I am going to get TWO bottles of "Rebel Yell".

mike mccabe · Post by **mike mccabe** » Sat Jul 14, 2007 11:13 am

ar wrote:Your last two notes are so enjoyable that I am going to get TWO bottles of "Rebel Yell".

Me, nice day in the garden, might have a G&T in a bit, no trawling through databases on the hottest day for two months here.

Mike

Laurence Batchelor · Post by **Laurence Batchelor** » Sat Jul 14, 2007 11:16 am

Me I have workmen in the house so the garden is a shambles, though I have the sun streaming in through the windows and I am drinking Fosters.
When not being distracted I am working on the Tribals trying to compile a comprehensive TROM for Somali.

mike mccabe · Post by **mike mccabe** » Sat Jul 14, 2007 11:21 am

Laurence Batchelor wrote:Me I have workmen in the house so the garden is a shambles, though I have the sun streaming in through the windows and I am drinking Fosters.
When not being distracted I am working on the Tribals trying to compile a comprehensive TROM for Somali.

My advice, go for a walk, enjoy the weather, we get little enough of it, the ships will be there when you get back.

For some unknown reason a DC3 Dakota flew over my house about two hours ago! Complete with wartime camouflage, wonderful sight.

Mike

Laurence Batchelor · Post by **Laurence Batchelor** » Sat Jul 14, 2007 11:27 am

I went for my daily 1 hours cross-country run this morning.
As I live right on the edge of a small town I can almost say I live in a rural setting, and get to 'clear my head' daily whilst running and trying to keep healthy.

I make no apologies I'm a workaholic at present trying to balance finishing writing my masters thesis, doing operational destroyer research and making the finer touches to a few destroyer related articles.

Maybe this is why I cannot see 'the wood from the trees'.

Filipe Ramires · Post by **Filipe Ramires** » Sat Jul 14, 2007 12:57 pm

Laurence Batchelor wrote:Me I have workmen in the house so the garden is a shambles, though I have the sun streaming in through the windows and I am drinking Fosters.

Ahhhhh, so sunny and hot weather here!!!!!

mike mccabe · Post by **mike mccabe** » Sat Jul 14, 2007 1:58 pm

Laurence Batchelor wrote: I make no apologies I'm a workaholic at present trying to balance finishing writing my masters thesis, doing operational destroyer research and making the finer touches to a few destroyer related articles.

Maybe this is why I cannot see 'the wood from the trees'.

Well I did my masters several years ago, work full time in a completely different area, and warship modelling (not history or research) is very much a hobby interest. But if was wood and trees you wanted help with then that is where my professional opinion may come into play.

mike

Laurence Batchelor · Post by **Laurence Batchelor** » Sat Jul 14, 2007 2:25 pm

That is often the way with academic research, especially historical, rarely does it directly apply to a career, shame really.

Laurence Batchelor · Post by **Laurence Batchelor** » Mon Jul 16, 2007 6:16 am

Right getting back to the point, I've looked through Morison also.
He has this to say

Morison wrote:Despite his inveterate opposition to this operation, Churchill made one of his genial appearances off the landing beaches in Provence on the afternoon of D-day, on board H.M.S. Kimberley. Sailors and GIs heading for the shore recognized the familiar cherubic face, long cigar and "V" sign on the bridge, and were duly cheered and impressed. He would have been set ashore, but for strict orders to the contrary from CinC Med (Cunningham), but he "had at least done the civil to ANVIL."Morison Vol XI p232

Furthermore

Morison wrote: From H.M.S. Kimberley, holding station north of Corsica where the convoys divided and headed for their destinations, Admiral Sir John Cunningham sent a signal to Admiral Hewitt in Catoctin "All convoys have passed at the planned moment. An operation so well organizied must succeed". Morison Vol XI p247.

This means that now I have consulted all of the best naval histories of the Second War World, namely Roskill, Rohwer & Morison.
They all still make it clear Churchill was on board Kimberley on the 15th August 1944.

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Mon Jul 16, 2007 6:30 am

ar wrote:Your last two notes are so enjoyable that I am going to get TWO bottles of "Rebel Yell".

Well it's cheap enough. I would be dubious about $10 whisky personally.

Rob

ar · Post by ar » Mon Jul 16, 2007 7:19 am

I have no doubt that Churchill was on the Kimberly. The photo in question is not that of the Kimberly though.

Laurence Batchelor wrote:Right getting back to the point, I've looked through Morison also.
He has this to say

Morison wrote:Despite his inveterate opposition to this operation, Churchill made one of his genial appearances off the landing beaches in Provence on the afternoon of D-day, on board H.M.S. Kimberley. Sailors and GIs heading for the shore recognized the familiar cherubic face, long cigar and "V" sign on the bridge, and were duly cheered and impressed. He would have been set ashore, but for strict orders to the contrary from CinC Med (Cunningham), but he "had at least done the civil to ANVIL."Morison Vol XI p232
Furthermore

Morison wrote: From H.M.S. Kimberley, holding station north of Corsica where the convoys divided and headed for their destinations, Admiral Sir John Cunningham sent a signal to Admiral Hewitt in Catoctin "All convoys have passed at the planned moment. An operation so well organizied must succeed". Morison Vol XI p247.
This means that now I have consulted all of the best naval histories of the Second War World, namely Roskill, Rohwer & Morison.
They all still make it clear Churchill was on board Kimberley on the 15th August 1944.

Laurence Batchelor · Post by **Laurence Batchelor** » Mon Jul 16, 2007 7:24 am

Prove it to me then please, I've yet to be convinced.
What ship is it?, the bridge configuration seems contradictory if one only had the photo as evidence.

It would seem Kimberley was of a sorts a command ship, as alot of top brass was on her during DRAGOON.
The only other RN command ship I can think of was one of the Dido's, Royalist perhaps?
It is no Dido bridge however.

If you continue to perpetuate your Hunt theory then tell me what ship it is from the 20 or so there.
I'll then be able to compare bridge structures as I'll most likely have photos of it as they are a very well photographed class.

Here is a complete list of all destroyers present in DRAGOON/ANVIL according to John de S. Winser:

E-class
Navarinon (ex Echo)

L-class
Lookout

T-class
Troubridge FL, Teazer, Tenacious, Termagant, Terpsichore, Tumult, Tuscan, Tyrian

Hunts:
Type I - Atherstone, Cleveland, Whaddon.
Type II - Beaufort, Bicester, Blackmore, Calpe, Farndale, Kriti (Greek ex Hursley), Lauderdale, Liddesdale, Oakley (ii), Themistoklis (ex Bramham), Wheatland, Zetland.
Type III - Aldenham, Belvoir, Catterick, Eggesford, Haydon, Pindos (ex Bolebroke).
Type IV - Brecon

That makes 22 Hunt's good luck!
As an aside for the Type IV Hunts Brecon & Brissenden I cannot locate good quality photos of their bridges.
A study of the 'as fitted' plans I have of them were inconclusive also.
They certainly had a bridge face more like a JKN, so for me if I was to put my head on the block it might be Brecon.

Laurence Batchelor · Post by **Laurence Batchelor** » Mon Jul 16, 2007 10:48 am

cosbymai some more turned up:

Captain Vian on the starboard side of Cossack's bridge (infront of the single Lewis gun) in the Autumn of 1940

A view of HMS Tartar's bridge taken from the crows nest in 1940

King George VI talking to Vice-Admiral Wells (Commanding Orkey and the Shetlands) on Somali's bridge during a visit to Scapa Flow in early June 1942.
Captain Eaton can be seen on the right, another observation is the open signal book at far right.
Caption also states she is carrying out a routine asdic sweep as the 'Dome Lowered' warning notice is visible.

mike mccabe · Post by **mike mccabe** » Mon Jul 16, 2007 11:10 am

Laurence Batchelor wrote:
Here is a complete list of all destroyers present in DRAGOON/ANVIL according to John de S. Winser:

E-class
Navarinon (ex Echo)

L-class
Lookout

T-class
Troubridge FL, Teazer, Tenacious, Termagant, Terpsichore, Tumult, Tuscan, Tyrian

Hunts:
Type I - Atherstone, Cleveland, Whaddon.
Type II - Beaufort, Bicester, Blackmore, Calpe, Farndale, Kriti (Greek ex Hursley), Lauderdale, Liddesdale, Oakley (ii), Themistoklis (ex Bramham), Wheatland, Zetland.
Type III - Aldenham, Belvoir, Catterick, Eggesford, Haydon, Pindos (ex Bolebroke).
Type IV - Brecon

Yes, it's one of those.

Probably.

Mike

ar · Post by ar » Mon Jul 16, 2007 11:45 am

You are being cruel Mr Mccabe.