Thank you for your continued help! I was pretty sure that the photos you supplied showed a rounded tub with a single 20mm per side. I'll build her with that arrangement.
As far as the anti-skid mats, I had seen a photo of CV-5 Yorktown (my favorite ship of all time!) with mats that resembled the front porch mats we used when I was young. I thought that's what was used on the DeHaven, also. But, I looked at more photos as you suggested and realized that the anti-skid looked as if it had been painted on, not set down like a mat.
I'll continue researching before I build and may have more questions. Like I said before, I'm wanting to build her as accurately as possible, but without a rivet-counter mentality. I'm not that proficient, anyhow!!
Thank you again! I'll be sure to post pics when I get her going.
I'm building the USS Cushing DD-797 and I'm painting her in MS 31/16D. Does any one know where I can see a good graphic or picture of the geometric design number 16? I know MS 31 was haze grey, ocean grey and black but I would like to see if there is a site or anything that will show me what the USN gave as guidance for the geometric design. If anyone can help me out I would be most grateful.
I can scan that schematics for you - but tomorrow. You should treat is as a general guidance and compare it with USS Cushing photos in camouflage, sometimes there are minor discrepancies.
I am looking for a camouflage design sheet for Measure 31/2C for USS Spence. I can't access the history.navy.mil site and don't know if they have any drawings there. If someone has such a drawing and can post, please do. Thanks!
"It is best to remain silent and let others assume you are dumb than to speak up and remove all doubt"
I am just recently getting back into modeling. When I was young, before my wife and kids, I loved building ship models. WWII CV's and BB's mostly. OOB only with no knowledge whatsoever of photo etching or ordering replacement parts from someplace like L'Arsenal. I spent a lot of time building them but never tried to match historically what the vessels should look like at any given point in their history. Just followed the instructions and painted accordingly.
Now, I'm older (much older) and the model bug has been calling. The kids are older and the wife is mellowing (ok, maybe just a little) and I find myself wanting to get back into the hobby. The Fletchers always interested me, although I never built one. So I stumbled upon this thread.
The internet is great, and one thing it does is bring people and ideas together. You won't find much better evidence to this effect as the information and ideas exchanged in this forum, and more specifically in this thread. I have spent the last couple of days reading it, some portions more than once. I have accessed photos and visited links to historical sources as well as PE vendors and parts dealers and one thing is clear, I was a bush league modeler.
You guys are INSANE! And you're dragging me right along with you! I never thought my attention would hang on the question of exactly when the USS Fletcher got its 20mm pilot house mtg. But its CRITICAL if you are serious about being historically accurate! So any questions I might ask in the coming weeks (months?) about how to do something or what something should have looked like is entirely your fault!
Ok, so this is what I would like to do, suggestions and criticisms are welcome. If anyone thinks I should try something else please say so (I may not take your advice, but I will listen):
1) Either the Nicholas or O'Bannon in their 1942 to 1943 Guadalcanal service configuration.
2) 1/350 scale - Tamiya's Fletchet kit
3) GMM's PE kit
4) 5" Turrets, 1.1 Quad (if needed not sure on this one), 20mm singles, all from L' Arsenal
I think this will allow me to do either ship. Heck I might even get two kits and do 'em both. All I know is I am ready to get started. I'll need all the tools and accessories as well so any help on these will go a long way. Maybe I'll post a list of what I think I need later and let you guys comment. I'll appreciate all the help I can get!
Thanks!
Greg
Greg Willis
Current build: HMS Hood
Kit: Trumpy 1/350
I'll tell you, for your own sanity and enjoyment ... go as far in the detailing your kits as you can stand, especially when you start. At 56 I'm not very good at the fine details, but I keep trying to be as accurate as I can be .. to a point.
Your choice of the Nicholas/O'Bannon as a start kit is a good one. Yes you will need a quad 1.1-in. gun mount. There are after-market parts available as you know and if you want the forth-coming 1/350 scale Buchanan kit from DML will have a quad 1.1-in. mount. You could use that one and then build the Gleaves unit as one with two twin 40-mm mounts if you want. The Nicholas was one of the most photograph ships during this period and destroyerhistory.org has MANY of the photos. The Nicholas and apparently O'Bannon had 20-mm guns added by local crews (for a total of ten) and makes for an interesting configuration.
Thanks for the reply. That's a good idea on using the Buchanan kit for the 1.1, then as you say I could build a Gleaves as well. How about using L'Arsenal? Have you ordered from them? Plus, I've never done PE so I know I'm going to botch it the first few times I try. Any tips on that? I've been reading the forum for tips, and have learned a lot. Just need some practice at it. I won't get started for a couple of weeks as I tend to over prepare for stuff, especially when I start a new "kick" as my wife likes to put it.
Thanks for the advice!
Greg
Greg Willis
Current build: HMS Hood
Kit: Trumpy 1/350
bocME262 wrote:That's a good idea on using the Buchanan kit for the 1.1, then as you say I could build a Gleaves as well. How about using L'Arsenal?
I have a set of the L'Arsenal 1.1 guns, and while I haven't used them on a model yet, I did give them a once over. The are beautiful.
However, if you don't want to order these or wait for the Dragon kit to come out, I have some left over Trumpeter 1.1s from my Lex-to-Sara conversion a few years back. If you need them, send me a note and I'll send you a few in the mail. Just let me know how many you need.
Martin
"Tomorrow is the most important thing in life. Comes into us at midnight very clean. It's perfect when it arrives and it puts itself in our hands. It hopes we've learned something from yesterday." John Wayne
Thanks for the offer! Right now I think I'm going to order some. However, if I change my mind I'll let you know. The amount of help and advice offered here is awesome!
I went to a LHS looking for Tamiya's 1:350 Fletcher kit. All they had was Trumpeter's 1:350 The Sullivans. But I was so psyched and eager to come away with something that I bought it anyway. Looks like tin cans have gotten under my skin. So now I've got a Fletcher class kit, albeit not the one I planned on, and absolutely nothing else. No glue, paint, or anything. Oh well, its a start.
Greg
Greg Willis
Current build: HMS Hood
Kit: Trumpy 1/350
Since you guys started talking 1.1 Quads I've been looking at NavSource but what is the weapon layout for a 1.1quad equipped Fletcher? 1 on either side of the bridge and 2 at the rear? Are the number of 20mm reduced on those equipped with 1.1s?
Also I see some Fletchers appear to me to have different 5" 38 guns. Were there different mainguns or am I seeing things?
Jeffcsr wrote:Since you guys started talking 1.1 Quads I've been looking at NavSource but what is the weapon layout for a 1.1quad equipped Fletcher? 1 on either side of the bridge and 2 at the rear? Are the number of 20mm reduced on those equipped with 1.1s?
Also I see some Fletchers appear to me to have different 5" 38 guns. Were there different mainguns or am I seeing things?
TIA,
Jeff
The 1.1 was the originally designed "heavy" AA weapon for the Fletcher's. One quad mounting was placed in the original high tub between mounts 53 and 54. Only the first 3 Bath built ships (DD's 449-451) actually received one. The Fletcher, herself, commissioned with a twin 40MM there, but was otherwise outfitted the same as the 1.1 equipped units. As for the different 5" guns, mounts 51 and 55 had an extra "knuckle" in the roof of the gunshield to better withstand the pressures of the superfiring guns firing at low lelvations on a direct forward or after bearing.
I think I have seen the photos of PaperLab quad 1.1-in. mounts before, but I had forgotten the firm's name. Thanks.
Jeff,
Dick covered the quad 1.1-in. on Fletchers. The number of 20-mm guns on these three ships is a little fuzzy.
(Dick this is fresh information)
The three units with the quad 1.1-in. mount started out with six 20-mm guns when completed. This number was increased to at least ten on the Nicholas (and appears to have been on the O'Bannon as well) locally in the South Pacific. The Chevalier left later than the other two for the Pacific, having gone to North Africa first, and I don't know for sure what her 20-mm armament looked like when she left for the Pacific. Many (all?) of the Fletchers that returned from the North Africa campaign were given additional 20-mm guns before heading to the Pacific. Typically at that time the elevated centerline platform for a single 20-mm before the bridge was installed and the amidships 20-mm guns increased BACK to two per side on those ships that had been reduced to one per side. This gave a total of seven 20-mm guns. Then in short order in early 1943, a 20-mm was authorized to be installed atop the pilothouse ... for a total of eight. The only good photos of the Chevalier I have found show her in October with six 20-mm guns. I found an entry in the 1 February 1943 Weekly Armament Summary that the Chevalier had been updated to seven 20-mm guns ... but the effective date was not listed. This would be in-line with her having the centerline elevated platform. Another entry in the 3 May 1943 Weekly Armament Summary listed her with eleven 20-mm guns as of 24 March 1943. This would line up with the 20-mm guns added to the Nicholas and O'Bannon, one atop the pilothouse and three on the fantail. The Weekly Armament Summaries list the O'Bannon with ten 20-mm as of 31 March 1943 (in the 23 May 1943 update) and the Nicholas with nine 20-mm as of 12 April 1943 (in the 31 May 1943). Some of the photos of the Nicholas do seem to only show two 20-mm guns on the fantail for a time. But, there are clear photos showing that by the summer of 1943 the Nicholas had three 20-mm guns on the fantail. These Armament Summaries are not ALWAYS accurate, particularly for ships on the "frontline", so I won't swear this is an accurate assessment of the 20-mm armament for these three ships. To make things more interesting, a surviving officer on the Nicholas says that for a short time in early 1943 they had as many as thirteen 20-mm guns, but a few had to be removed when due to a lack of stops or pipe guards ... they shot up the ship and wounded some of the crew ... including this officer!!
The three 20mm's that were added on the fantail on the Nicholas (my model subject) look to have (and forgive my vernacular here) "splinter guards" around the forward end of the mounting. I've seen these in a couple of photos, it's hard to tell because there are so many men standing around them. They're definitely not in a tub, however. Are my observations correct? I can make these myself if I could see a good clear picture of them. Any ideas?
Thanks,
Greg (Willis)
Greg Willis
Current build: HMS Hood
Kit: Trumpy 1/350
I have a poor quality scan of the fantail 20-mm guns, but DestroyerHistory.org has a really nice collection of on-board photos of the Nicholas.
If you have not been there yet, this page is the entry to the images Dave McComb has of the Nicholas and is well worth going through ... http://www.ussnicholas.org/images.html ...
This photo shows the semi-circular bulwarks in front of the two onboard 20-mm guns ... http://www.ussnicholas.org/43ob_20.html ... as you can see the bulwarks served a couple of purposes.
Yes, I had seen these on that website before. With all the crew there it was difficult to see how far around the bulwarks went. I'll go with semi-circular. I guess the aftmost center gun had no such structure?
Greg
Greg Willis
Current build: HMS Hood
Kit: Trumpy 1/350
