The Rape of Nanking

[chuck]

A forage party from the clan of bongabonga clubbed one of my great-to-the-753rd-power grand uncles over the head 21947 years ago. It's been almost 22000 years, but do we ever hear of an apology from the descendants of the bongabongas? Noooooooo....

[Werner]

A forage party from the clan of bongabonga clubbed one of my great-to-the-753rd-power grand uncles over the head 21947 years ago. It's been almost 22000 years, but do we ever hear of an apology from the descendants of the bongabongas? Noooooooo....

On behalf of the Bongabongas, I offer my humblest and most sincere regrets. I will endeavor for the rest of my days to insure the Bongabongas never again organize and participate in offensive warfare or acts of aggression unless such action is sanctioned by the UN.

[Werner]

It's called placing blame where it belongs, Werner. Even I, as a person of Chinese descent, would not condone destroying the entire shrine just for the ashes of the criminals. Place blame and punishment upon those who committed and order the crime, and leave the others to their rest.

In Western jurisprudence there is a concept of "accessory". Those who brought about the ascendancy of the military and imperialistic spirit of Japan are accessory to the crimes, and need to perform an act of contrition like Germany, before the case can be closed.

Paying the Korean "Comfort Women" might be a start.

I might add that in Germany Nazi officials and SS officers are buried in cemeteries, but officials of the German government do not visit in official remembrance, and foreign countries are not outraged by such events.

[Filipe Ramires]

In Western jurisprudence there is a concept of "accessory".

I don't think that Japan used to fit Western jurisprudence...perhaps today but not until 1945. Japanese war criminals were judged by Western principles...something for which they were most alien to. My bold.

[Werner]

Quite so, but in 1946 we convened a war-crimes tribunal which applied Western principles of law and responsibility to the Japanese leadership. Therefore, I do not consider the idea of accessory inappropriate.

In addition, one of the key developments of post-war international law is the principle of "a lawful order". Orders which violate international law or the rules and rights of man are ipso facto "unlawful", and the soldiers who obeyed orders to shoot prisoners, kill villagers and so on are liable under these principles.

[Timmy C]

There's also "innocent until proven guilty" - until some firm proof is found that a particular inhabitant of an urn was there at the time the crime took place, then that person's ashes should be left well alone. As I've said - I'm all up for removing the remnants of the officials and commanders who ordered the killings along with the remnants of the troops who can be proven to have been at the scene and time of the crimes. Leave the rest who could not possibly have participated alone.

[Werner]

I could live with that. I am still upset that the current Japanese use the shrine for a locus of imperial fervor and denial of their guilt.

[Deckard]

A forage party from the clan of bongabonga clubbed one of my great-to-the-753rd-power grand uncles over the head 21947 years ago. It's been almost 22000 years, but do we ever hear of an apology from the descendants of the bongabongas? Noooooooo....

On behalf of the Bongabongas, I offer my humblest and most sincere regrets. I will endeavor for the rest of my days to insure the Bongabongas never again organize and participate in offensive warfare or acts of aggression unless such action is sanctioned by the UN.

So you're a descendant of the Bongabongos are you Werner? Well pleased to meet you sir .

Myself, I'm a descendant of the Fukarwe's .

[Filipe Ramires]

In addition, one of the key developments of post-war international law is the principle of "a lawful order". Orders which violate international law or the rules and rights of man are ipso facto "unlawful", and the soldiers who obeyed orders to shoot prisoners, kill villagers and so on are liable under these principles.

Yes, agreed indeed but perhaps they should run through the Allied ranks as well or do you think that they were all good guys and did no harm to civilian populations. Ask most of the women in Berlin what happened to them when the Soviet took the city! Were they convicted? I think not. Were they kind promoted as liberators and war heroes by their regime? Plenty of them were.

I am still upset that the current Japanese use the shrine for a locus of imperial fervor and denial of their guilt.

Imperial fervor? Well, other then some tiny islands around the Japanese Home Islands I don't see any Empire to worship at all. They are pretty much down to what they start with after the Meiji Revolution. They don't even own their half of Sakalina Island or the Curilles for what matters...issue yet to solve after more then 60 years and I don't see Mr. Putin open his hand and give back those islands to Japan.

[Werner]

In addition, one of the key developments of post-war international law is the principle of "a lawful order". Orders which violate international law or the rules and rights of man are ipso facto "unlawful", and the soldiers who obeyed orders to shoot prisoners, kill villagers and so on are liable under these principles.

Yes, agreed indeed but perhaps they should run through the Allied ranks as well or do you think that they were all good guys and did no harm to civilian populations. Ask most of the women in Berlin what happened to them when the Soviet took the city! Were they convicted? I think not. Were they kind promoted as liberators and war heroes by their regime? Plenty of them were.

I am also uncomfortable about the unrestricted bombing of cities in WW.II, with the most aggregious example in Europe being Dresden. The failure of the Allies to provide for the surrendered Germans in the winter of 1945 is a particularly dark blot on the reputations of all concerned.

The War Crimes Tribunals executed several U-Boat captains for killing civilians who were merely trying to escape their sinking ships. I don't see a material difference with a B-17 bomber dropping demolition bombs within city limits.

[Filipe Ramires]

Regarding strategic bombing my take is that yes in the end the result was the killing of civilians as well but I don't blame the pilots and their crews for that. They were ordered to to that job. Now, 5 soviet soldiers (� l� Nanking Japanese style if you want to compare) holding a young German or Polish girl and raping her and killing her in the end eventually now that's cold blood murderer. Bombers I don't consider cold blood murderer though the casualties caused were quite high on the civilian population as we all know. Regarding submarine warfare taken in the wrong way both Germans and Japanese paid for doing nasty things to survivors. If I recall correctly so was a USN submarine skipper cort-martialed for sinking an hospital ship I believe (can't remember the exact case from memory here).

[MartinJQuinn]

Regarding strategic bombing my take is that yes in the end the result was the killing of civilians as well but I don't blame the pilots and their crews for that. They were ordered to to that job.

There was also a tit for tat going on - you did it to our cities and now you'll pay the price multiple times over.

[Werner]

I know the redoubtable Churchill was feeling squeamish about the civilian loss inflicted on Germany by 1945. The upper echelon was certainly discussing how to phrase their orders to minimize their legal risk in potential post-war scrutiny.

[Laurent]

In addition, one of the key developments of post-war international law is the principle of "a lawful order". Orders which violate international law or the rules and rights of man are ipso facto "unlawful", and the soldiers who obeyed orders to shoot prisoners, kill villagers and so on are liable under these principles.

Hi Werner ,

Were you thinking of My Lai when you wrote the lines I quoted ?

where are those US soldiers who raped & killed civilians at My Lai ?

Are they still in prison ?

no ...

have they ever been condemned ?

no , but LT Calley , who left prison two days after having been condemned , on Nixon recommandation ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Lai_Massacre

Now, 5 soviet soldiers holding a young German or Polish girl and raping her and killing her in the end eventually now that's cold blood murderer.

Hi Filipe ,

If I remember well , I know the SS soldiers got the order to rape whoever they met in Poland & in the URSS , the nazi top hoped by this that a lot of women would get pregnant & go to "lebensborns" to give birth to their child , children to become good nazi soldiers in the 1960's .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebensborn

So , I might be wrong , but to me , if soviet soldiers raped german women when entering Germany in 1945 , it was a kind of a "payback" action ...

Regards ,

Laurent

[Werner]

Laurent, Lt. Calley may have been pardoned by Nixon after 3 1/2 years of restriction, but his aspirations for military career certainly perished with his court marshal.

The US has a very spotty record in the administration of military justice, which is why I find the current media glorification of the NCIS so personally amusing. Anyone with any knowledge of the NCIS experience investigating the USS Iowa accident would understand what I mean.

The Viet Cong also bear some responsibility for the massacre for their continued use of civilians as shields, and their guerrilla tactics which put civilians at great risk.

I suppose we are guilty of judging the past with present morality, but you'd have to agree the behavior of US and allied troops in Iraq and Afghanistan has been exemplary compared to any prior conflict.

[Lesforan]

This is a debate without an end. As Chuck aluded to, you can always go back in history to find wrongs committed to any group.

There is room to criticize the US for its role in all of this. We made a terrible choice of "Allies" in the Soviet Union, a country opposed to US interests as well as
German. Then we let them occupy half of Europe, replacing pro-Nazi governments with others argueably as bad or worse. The power shift occured coincident with the German surrender.

In Japan, in recognition of the political disaster taking place in Europe, the US overcorrected, allowing the Japanese to avoid responsibility in the hope of manufacturing an ally against the Soviet Union. In an incredible miscarriage of justice, the Emperor was not only spared the noose, but allowed to remain as head of state. This would be like hanging key Nazis while retaining Hitler as Chancellor! Unthinkable in Germany, business as usual in Japan.

Doing things to the Yakasuni Shrine? Forget it. Those guys are all dead. Let them be.

[Werner]

If we excuse it as "human nature", we have written a ticket for people to do it in the future. It may be "winner's justice", but we need to hold our enemies (as well as ourselves) to standards of basic decency or we will descend to the lowest common denominator.

As far as the shrine is concerned, perhaps it is not the best way to get the attention of the Japanese people, but they still need to address the open wounds from WW.II. If Japanese children could receive an accurate history of the interval in question, it would be a start. Instead, their education of WW.II is largely disinformation.

In the calculus of war, the atom bombings were narrowly legal, since the regime had militarized the entire population and promised a fight to the end. The bombs saved countless Japanese and Allied lives. It also saved Japan from a partition similar to Germany's. However, I am sure I would feel differently if they had not caused the prompt surrender of the regime.

Dresden was bombed merely to trap German forces in such a way that they could be destroyed by the Red Army before they could surrender to the West. It did not shorten the war one hour. Those who approved that bombing ought to have been held to account.

[Lesforan]

Near the very end of the war the German high command offered to make a separate truce with the Western Allies that would not include the Soviets. This was rejected by the Allies...they either wanted to continue the charade of Soviet co-operation, or they were afraid it would result in some sembelance of the German Government remaining intact.

I have often pondered this dilemma. What would have happened if the Germans had UNILATERALLY declared a cease-fire in the West while concentrating on the Soviet advance? Would Allied forces continue attacking German forces that refused to engage them?

The German comanders had correctly recognized the situation as one that pitted the Western Allies against the Soviet Union in the postwar Europe. Germany was effectively out of the war before the fall of Berlin. It seems they had a better grasp of the situation than the Western Allies did.

Holding back the American and British armies to allow the Soviets to take Berlin was a very serious mistake with half a century of results. Central and Eastern Europe was sacrificed to allow the Soviets to have their revenge on Germany. A very serious lapse of judgement.

[Walt]

Laurent you tread on very shacky ground when you compare Mai Lai to China.
LT Calley was Blewed, screwed, and tatooed by his superiors as were the LT's troopers.
Revisionist or anti US and pro RVN sources have used that disaster as a rally cry for years. read a little about that incident first. Mai Lai was not DisneyWorld.. The VietCong were civilian based army that dressed like and acted like the local population but fought like and in close support to the NVA..Mai Lai was the butcher ground for several of LT Calley's comrades a little while before his action. In war rape as well as killing goes on.. War sucks.. and if you happen to be a female soldier it could suck even more Heck even males are raped. I don't defend Mai Lai.. It was a really bad action but it was common place in Vietnam both ways, as well as it was on every battlefield in the History of the world. What the Japanese and Nazis did to Millions of unarmed innocent civilians is not to be compared to what we civilians label as actual combat atrocities.. These terrible things all armys are guilty of doing and continue to this day. That is why it's called War!
As for Nukeing Japan.. If it saved one allied life it was worth it.. The Japanese started that war and they are the people with the blood on their hands..they are the guilty people not the pilots that lit up Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
This is why warriors are the true pacifists of the world.

[Lesforan]

Yes. You cannot equate a criminal act of an individual like Calley with organized, officially sanctioned atrocities like the Rape of Nanking, the revenge for the Doolittle/Halsey raid, or the Holocaust. Calley acted on his own volution and was given his opportunity to defend his actions in a court of law. Maybe he was only given a slap on the wrist, but Japanese or Nazis who did the same thing would have gotten a pat on the back. That is why you cannot compare the two.

Ask any WWII American Vet what he thinks of the atomic bombing. My father was sent back after the German surrender to train for the invasion of Japan. Those nukes may have saved his life (and in doing so, my own).

Sure, the A-bombs took many innocent lives, but so did the bombing of Berlin, Dresden, and Hamburg. The pacifists cry over the Japanese losses, but ignore the German ones. They are not really mourning the Japanese lives lost, but are really expressing their own fears.

"Cold War kids were hard to kill, under their desks in an air raid drill." Billy Joel, a contemporary of Walt, CT, and myself.