Calling all Fletcher-class (DD-445) fans

[Rick E Davis]

As best I know and people who know camo better than me, like Tracy White, has said that the 20-mm/40-mm gun mounts ... base and shields, etc. on the mounts ... were painted the same color as the camo scheme for the ship in that area. The gun barrels themselves appear to be painted in a gunmetal and/or black (for things like the springs).

[Thundergrunt]

Rick

I cant remember if I showed you my completed Edwards thanks to your pictures, now if i can just learn how to do PE.

[Brad Isherwood]

Actually starting from a Trumpeter 1/350 "THE SULLIVANS" kit would be less work.

The Tamiya kit is an early closed "Round-faced Bridge" FLETCHER. ISHERWOOD (DD-520) is a revised open "Square-faced" Bridge unit. The Trumpeter kit comes with options for the mid-war five twin 40-mm configuration and the late war Anti-Kamikaze configuration.

To convert the Tamiya kit would require a new bridge (or kit-bash and use one from a Trumpeter kit), conversion to a five twin 40-mm mounts configuration ... waist twin mounts and twin mounts forward of the bridge and a lowered mount between 53 and 54 mounts (the Trumpeter kit has most of the parts for the ISHERWOOD configuration), revising the platforms on the stacks ... moving the searchlights and platform to stack one and adding a Mk 51 director platform to stack 2, and seven 20-mm guns. A lot of work. It can be done, but depending on your skill set, could be overwhelming.

The photo you posted is of ISHERWOOD in Ms 22 ... NOT Ms 32/16d. But, ISHERWOOD was in Ms 32/16d during Iwo Jima and Okinawa operations.

Hello.....My first post here.
I have enjoyed the modeling skill presented and the detailed data on this Fletcher thread.
I built DD 520 off of BU Ships records in DC,at the Library of Congress.
was able to obtain all the ships photos,deck log,action reports etc from National Archives and Naval Historical Branch at the Washington Navy Yard - 1992.
The Lindberg kit had several scale flaws....many parts were not cast well.
so..out with the hotknife...scratch build...lower funnels,swap out gun tube's,build new 40mm tubs,
and..back in 1992 was able to aquire a nice set of soft metal 40mm's.
Painting required some planning and patience....it came off great,
left off the railings etc...thought that cluttered the models lines,
lowered both funnels to achieve a better symetry visually.
*note...the DD 520 color pic on this forum is probably off the net where the info is wrong,
Its not Iwo Jima.....but IE Shima off Okinawa April 16th/45.
I was the one which brought the image to the internet....it was accidentally mis filed at the Naval Historical Branch...the curator found it during my research appointment.
so..it created quite a buzz that day..for the staff who were not really aware of it.
The photo with proper tag info is at the Navsource.org page for DD 520.

Pic 1
Pic 2
Pic 3

[Sean Hert]

I was the one which brought the image to the internet....it was accidentally mis filed at the Naval Historical Branch...the curator found it during my research appointment.
so..it created quite a buzz that day..for the staff who were not really aware of it.
The photo with proper tag info is at the Navsource.org page for DD 520.

FYI- It's actually cross-filed with the NHC- the National Archives has that image too; I just scanned the slide last week. (A preponderance of those color images are at both locations)

[Rick E Davis]

Sean, I knew I had seen that photo somewhere.

From what I have been told, NHHC has "print" copies of many of the WWII and 1950s era color slides and NARA II has the slides.

Brad, I had thought that the color ISHERWOOD photo coming alongside was taken later than April, 1945. But, I forgot that she was one of the kamikaze damaged units (on 22 April). She returned to the USA and was upgraded to the Anti-Kamikaze configuration.

I came across a series of photos of ISHERWOOD at NHHC on my last trip there (before Chuck Haberlein retired), taken just prior to her transfer. She was one of the 4-Gun modified units.

[Brad Isherwood]

Sean, I knew I had seen that photo somewhere.

From what I have been told, NHHC has "print" copies of many of the WWII and 1950s era color slides and NARA II has the slides.

Brad, I had thought that the color ISHERWOOD photo coming alongside was taken later than April, 1945. But, I forgot that she was one of the kamikaze damaged units (on 22 April). She returned to the USA and was upgraded to the Anti-Kamikaze configuration.

I came across a series of photos of ISHERWOOD at NHHC on my last trip there (before Chuck Haberlein retired), taken just prior to her transfer. She was one of the 4-Gun modified units.

Hello Rick
Chuck Haberlein had an artist paint him RADM Benjamin Isherwoods record setting ship ....The Wampanoag just prior the time of my visit in 1992.
The curator assisting with DD 520 photo hunt served aboard USS Waldron [sorry ..forgot his name]
A Lady curator dropped by,inquiring who I was in connection to DD 520.....that NHHC records showed I was the first Isherwood to access the ships records.
The fella from the USS Waldron gave me some directions to find the Isherwoods reunion group.
That visit to NHHC changed the direction of my life...opened doors that I would never have imagined.
Several of the WW-2 crew put me up at their homes for visits....
Herb Allen [Gunnery Officer] bought Elizabeth Taylors home in Pacific Palisades CA,
so ya....Bill Cosby next door,Tom Cruise and Nicole lived across the street at the time.
Saw Goldie Hawn riding her bike...[darn!]...wanted to meet Kurt Russell...am a Huge fan of the Movie - Big Trouble in Little China : )
DD 520's reunion in Frisco in 95 [Marine Memorial Hotel]...was their first large gathering.
For me...it was my first time seeing these men after a series of phone calls and sharing photos.
Most had not seen the pic's from either Nat/archives or NHHC.
Their eye's lit up like kids on Christmas morning......the story's...if only I had brought a tape recorder.
Herb Allen kept a diary [against regulations]....went down to a kinko's and copied it.
After that reunion,...a Bluejacket from the late 50's cruise 7th FLT with USS Hancock Carrier group sent a 35mm conv to VHS of his tour.
DD 520 on plane guard...USS Gregory,Mullany....coming alongside CV 19....which towers above 520,
you can see the tails of A 3 Skywarriors and Skyhawks hanging out over the deck.....
they transfer a downed pilot,
some heavy sea's coverage from the bridge...water smashing over B turret as the bow digs in the trough.
During DD 520's time in the Aleutians in WW-2....they were taking 48 degree roles,
even the hardest salt was puking his guts out.
I'll share some in the future about NewYears eve's at Dutch Harbor and USS Luce,
sailors plastered to the gills on Raisin Jack....pulling the ships horn at midnight...and the chaos as the harbor thought it was under attack : )

[Landlocked]

Hi all,

I think this is one of the best and most informative threads out there. Thanks particularly to rick whose inexhaustible patience and photographic resources is admirable!

I'm finding it hard to identify where the forward Mk51 directors are fitted on a square-bridge Fletcher. Are they at the front corner of the bridge wings or near the torpedo directors at the back?

It would help me if anyone has an overhead photo of this arrangement so i can identify where the open deck instruments, captain's chair etc and weapons directors are situated as kit instructions are not particularly clear on the Trumpeter Sullivans.

Did the square-bridge Fletcher's have lookout posts on the bridge roof like the round-bridge types?

Sorry for what might be obscure questions, but i have five Fletchers in various scales to build this winter and the info would be very helpful!

Thanks,
LL

[Rick E Davis]

LL,

As with most things related to "configuration" layout ... it depends. You didn't indicate which FLETCHER(S) you are trying to model. The Trumpeter 1/350 scale kit can be built as a "Five twin 40-mm mounts" or the "Anti-Kamikaze" configurations. Also, different yards and over time the layouts of the Open Square-Bridge FLETCHERS varied. In addition, there were three "unique" Open Square-bridge FLETCHERS that didn't modify the original Square-Bridge layout from the original configuration used prior to the forward twin 40-mm mounts being installed.

For overhead shots that provide views of the bridge layout, the Mare Island Navy Yard photos are the best. Most of the aerial shot photos dead overhead are just not that fine of resolution to make out details. In some of the views below, chairs and lookout stations have yet to be re-installed or for the mothballed shot, have been removed for storage below.


Five twin 40-mm mounts FLETCHERS bridge configuration mid-war.

DD-667 CHAUNCEY on 14 August 1943. Overhead shot, hard to make out details, but the locations of the forward Mk 51 directors can be seen, followed by the "Captain's" Chair, outlook chair, then the torpedo director.


DD-690 NORMAN SCOTT on 14 October 1944. I love this shot, sailor "Smith" is taking a break in the best chair on the ship.


Five twin 40-mm mount FLETCHERS bridge configuration late-war.

DD-631 ERBEN on 8 February 1945. You can see the relative position of the Pelorus to the Mk 51 director.


DD-649 ALBERT W. GRANT on 23 February 1945. A little bit dark, but between this view and the one of SHIELDS below, you can see the configuration of the "Lookout Chair".


DD-596 SHIELDS on 11 February 1945 as completed. She was one of the last two FLETCHERS completed.


DD-688 REMEY on 11 December 1945 in the process of being mothballed.



Anti-Kamikaze configured FLETCHERS at the end of the war.

DD-536 OWEN on 29 August 1945.


DD-531 HAZELWOOD on 27 September 1945. She has her lookout chairs on the pilothouse rather than on the navigation bridge.

[Landlocked]

Perfect Rick, thanks for coming through again.

As I should have said, I'm building the Van Valkenburgh DD-686 at Okinawa (standard square bridge with 5x twin 40mm), and the Healy DD-671 with the emergency AA fit of 2x quad 40mm.

The other three I'm building are Spence DD-512 (round bridge), and Fletcher and Chevalier (both early war round bridge without the additional 40mms.)

Thanks again,

LL

[Dick J]

I presume you are aware that Chevalier was one of the three that had a quad 1.1 rather than a twin 40MM in the elevated position between mounts 53 and 54. She retained that mounting until her loss in '43. The other two, Nicholas and O'Bannon, retained the 1.1 until they were fitted with the 5 twin 40MM in late '43/early '44.

[Rick E Davis]

Also, CHEVALIER (DD-451) had an elevated centerline platform for a 20-mm gun before the bridge in late December 1942 just before she went to the Pacific. While in the South Pacific, she had another 20-mm added to atop the pilothouse and three added to the fantail (like NICHOLAS and O'BANNON).

Fortunately there are quite a few options available for getting a quad 1.1-in mount ... a spare from a DML BENSON-GLEAVES kit or several aftermarket makers.

[Landlocked]

Dick & Rick - thank you again. I'm building the Chevalier in 1/700 so I already have a quad 1.1 from the DML Laffey kits.

The Fletcher is from the Revell 1/144 kit, I want to show her "as commissioned" so I guess (from reading this thread!) I'm correct in thinking it has MS 12 Mod camo, 1x 40mm twin on the raised aft gun platform, and no extra 20mm fitted beyond the two fwd and four amidships?

Thanks,

Al (LL)

[Rick E Davis]

Al,

You are correct. As commissioned configuration for FLETCHER is pretty much the only configuration that can be built "out-of-the-box" with the Revell 1/144 scale kit. I have been puzzled why some items, notably navigation bridge equipment, are missing from a kit this large in scale.

I get a little more energized about CHEVALIER (DD-451) and her configuration, she is one of my FLETCHER class favorites and I have done a fair amount of research about her given the general lack of photos of her in the South Pacific. CHEVALIER's CO was constantly pushing to get his ship's AA armament upgraded during her shakedown and deployment to Operation Torch convoy escort duties. But, the work wasn't authorized beyond actually leaving with a Mk 51 director installed for the quad 1.1-in mount (late October 1942) and the added 20-mm on the centerline forward (December 1942).

[Brad Isherwood]

I get a little more energized about CHEVALIER (DD-451) and her configuration, she is one of my FLETCHER class favorites and I have done a fair amount of research about her given the general lack of photos of her in the South Pacific. CHEVALIER's CO was constantly pushing to get his ship's AA armament upgraded during her shakedown and deployment to Operation Torch convoy escort duties. But, the work wasn't authorized beyond actually leaving with a Mk 51 director installed for the quad 1.1-in mount (late October 1942) and the added 20-mm on the centerline forward (December 1942).

Rick,
Conversation on BU Ship augment of Fletcher class thru the war years reminded me of a photo
of DD 520 with what appears pre frame build for 40mm fantail.
Hopped over to Navsource.....USS Beale DD 471 a 1942 commissioned Bethlehem Staten Island
went out with 2 - 40mm ...one on the fantail
a pic your familiar with : )
Photo below is a quick grab off the wall via slide projector.....hot spot is from the overhead lights at National Archives from 1992.

The date is Jan/43.
Question....When did the 3/40mm version BU Ships augment occur?
It would appear DD 520 had the 40mm framing and base removed,....with the midsection raised platforms for 40mm put in since this photo for her delivery from St/isle yard as a 3/40mm and fantail 20mm.

[Guest]

On the square bridge Fletchers, is the width/length of the pilot house overall the same on the 01 level as the 02?
I can see the "triangle" on the 01 protruded forward, but wasnt sure on the rest of the dimentions.

Thanks,

Paul

[Rick E Davis]

Brad,

Yes ISHERWOOD was building to/completing to the "standard" two twin 40-mm mounts (one on the fantail) as seen in your photo in January 1943. All FLETCHERS under construction in January 1943 would have been similar. To answer your question about "when" did the six 40-mm configuration come into existence requires a little background. The operational USN didn't NOT like the fantail location for the twin 40-mm mount. So, in late October 1942 a "revised" scheme was authorized where the two twin 40-mm mounts were moved to the waist location. Before the revised ship plans could be sent to all the builders of FLETCHERS in February 1943, only one ship was actually so completed to this scheme ... GUEST (DD-472) built at Boston Navy Yard. In early February 1943 (as GUEST was being completed) the operational USN campaigned and got approval to revise the "standard" armament to three twin 40-mm mounts. Basically, the new waist twin 40-mm mounts would be installed and the twin 40-mm mount between 53 and 54 mounts was retained and the ten or eleven 20-mm guns would be installed (ten for "Square-bridge" units and eleven for "Round-bridge" units). This transition to the standard configuration went pretty quickly because the waist installation and drawings were ready (also building GUEST worked out several issues) and had already been sent to the builders. So units started to be modified to or completed to the new six 40-mm standard in late February - early March 1943. There were several different configurations that appeared due to the transition before a degree of standardization was returned in ship deliveries. So yes ISHERWOOD was revised by her builder prior to delivery to the USN on 10 April 1943.

Ironically, the next standard to five twin 40-mm mounts was authorized only a few months later in June 1943. But, it took a little longer to get the plans for the forward twin 40-mm mounts installation, particularly on the Square-bridge units. Round-bridge units started getting the forward twin 40-mm mounts earlier than Square-bridge units because there was room for them forward of the bridge. Plans for the new scheme and general MASS modification of the Square-bridge didn't really start until late in July 1943 and not all yards caught up on the production line until as late as September 1943. Also, the installation of CIC was a big factor as well.


Paul,

To answer your question comes in at this point. The "original" Revised Open Square-bridge design was designed with the pilot house and the 01 deckhouse below more or less in-line overtop of the other. This was fine with only 20-mm guns being were installed before the bridge. It was found that when the authorization to replace the forward 20-mm guns with two twin 40-mm mounts before the bridge, that on the Square-bridge units the 01 deckhouse level of the bridge needed to be cut back to a smaller footprint and the navigation bridge revised to be reshaped otherwise the twin 40-mm mounts crowded the 52 mount. A small deckhouse extension at the front of the new 01 deckhouse shape was added for a fan room. Actually the first three Square-bridge FLETCHERS (DD527-529) to receive forward twin 40-mm mounts, didn't revise the bridge and were unique throughout the war. Actually I have yet to see any Square-bridge FLETCHER kit have the proper bridge for units with the 20-mm forward of the bridge and Floating Drydocks plans book doesn't even show this version.

Details about this and plans have been posted elsewhere in the 48 pages of this forum string on FLETCHERS. I'm not going back to find the specific page. Happy hunting.

[Brad Isherwood]

Brad,

Yes ISHERWOOD was building to/completing to the "standard" two twin 40-mm mounts (one on the fantail) as seen in your photo in January 1943. All FLETCHERS under construction in January 1943 would have been similar. To answer your question about "when" did the six 40-mm configuration come into existence requires a little background. The operational USN didn't NOT like the fantail location for the twin 40-mm mount. So, in late October 1942 a "revised" scheme was authorized where the two twin 40-mm mounts were moved to the waist location. Before the revised ship plans could be sent to all the builders of FLETCHERS in February 1943, only one ship was actually so completed to this scheme ... GUEST (DD-472) built at Boston Navy Yard. In early February 1943 (as GUEST was being completed) the operational USN campaigned and got approval to revise the "standard" armament to three twin 40-mm mounts. Basically, the new waist twin 40-mm mounts would be installed and the twin 40-mm mount between 53 and 54 mounts was retained and the ten or eleven 20-mm guns would be installed (ten for "Square-bridge" units and eleven for "Round-bridge" units). This transition to the standard configuration went pretty quickly because the waist installation and drawings were ready (also building GUEST worked out several issues) and had already been sent to the builders. So units started to be modified to or completed to the new six 40-mm standard in late February - early March 1943. There were several different configurations that appeared due to the transition before a degree of standardization was returned in ship deliveries. So yes ISHERWOOD was revised by her builder prior to delivery to the USN on 10 April 1943.

Ironically, the next standard to five twin 40-mm mounts was authorized only a few months later in June 1943. But, it took a little longer to get the plans for the forward twin 40-mm mounts installation, particularly on the Square-bridge units. Round-bridge units started getting the forward twin 40-mm mounts earlier than Square-bridge units because there was room for them forward of the bridge. Plans for the new scheme and general MASS modification of the Square-bridge didn't really start until late in July 1943 and not all yards caught up on the production line until as late as September 1943. Also, the installation of CIC was a big factor as well.

Rick

E for excellence Rick....getting so much coverage into the brief post.
Went digging around the net and hooked up with your MK 49 Gun Director article/contribution : )

DD 520 was quite busy from June thru Sept/43....Operations with USS Ranger,Convoy screen,
bringing Churchill to Halifax,.....then the opp from Scapa flow with the Home Fleet concerning Tirpitz.
The Photo of DD 520 coming alongside USS Tuscaloosa shows her with the 3 front 20mm.
Sept 30th,....the War Diary records removal of all ammo aboard in different configurations at pier 2(West) South Boston Navy Yard.
It would appear she got her forward 40mm's with the raised 20mm on the bridge platform removed then/for the most part of October.
Nov 14.....Charles J Badger & 520 escort USS Boston around to San Fransisco,......and later all went to Pearl Harbor .

[Rick E Davis]

Brad,

I searched the War Diaries of the FLETCHERS, that I know about, that served with the Home Fleet, including ISHERWOOD, BELL (DD-587), and CAPPS (DD-550). Quite a few BENSON-GLEAVES destroyers served with the Home Fleet, but only those three FLETCHERS did (I think). Interesting reading. I also, found ISHERWOOD's Departure Report from Boston Navy Yard after her return from the Home Fleet assignment when she (and BELL) did get the forward twin 40-mm mod and CIC installation ... 29 September - 21 October 1943.

She definitely had an interesting career.

ISHERWOOD with BELL in the background during their August 1943 trip.

[Brad Isherwood]

Brad,
I searched the War Diaries of the FLETCHERS, that I know about, that served with the Home Fleet, including ISHERWOOD, BELL (DD-587), and CAPPS (DD-550). Quite a few BENSON-GLEAVES destroyers served with the Home Fleet, but only those three FLETCHERS did (I think). Interesting reading. I also, found ISHERWOOD's Departure Report from Boston Navy Yard after her return from the Home Fleet assignment when she (and BELL) did get the forward twin 40-mm mod and CIC installation ... 29 September - 21 October 1943.

Have enjoyed studying the history of the USN in WW-2,
Fletcher class has several grim endings for some tin cans....
USS Callaghan.....literally minutes away from being relieved on RP and going home.
Some cans were unlucky.....William D porter : )
Little Ship,Big War's author captured my imagination with the coment that on some cans,....some crew members tried everything possible to sleep on deck somewhere's instead of inside.
Having watched their sisters superstructures going up hundreds of ft ....watching them be torn apart from secondary internal explosions.
A few of the Gunnery officers at DD 520's reunion mentioned the CIC was on its toes....
they were able to get bursts with the 5"rs near snoopers and Kamikazes at far distance.......which generated these aircraft choosing another target.
March 26/45 during the start of the Western Islands operations, DD 520 got on 3 really quick.....
2 of these flew a short distance and attacked USS Kimberly DD 521.
Kim got good hits on a Val....yet it crashed her aft gun mounts.

This Fletcher thread has me planning to find 1/125 PE ,
would like to remod the aft 40mm superstructure....there's pics of a build on this thread to copy from.
The model is from 1993...she's been roughed up a bit,..and lost little pieces here and there from the decks.
Put metal anchors and chains on if possible.
The model is more art expression...than accurate reproduction.....my focus was the camo design.
You do loose detail in all that dark paint ...probably will weather the camo and put some rust stains on it : )
try to put hoses and smaller detail on her.....but leave off the deck railings.
so ya....wanted a symetry which brought the camo out as focus.....partly why I chopped the funnels down just a bit.

[KevinHoggard]

Hi all, I've got the kit, and will be ordering Nautilus PE set along with the square bridge conversion as I would like to build the USS JOHNSTON. I haven't started the kit yet as I have been looking for twin 40mm guns for a long time. I really have only found 1 set that I really like and thats the G-force... however everyone is out of stock. I could buy the Nautilus ones, but I would have to buy 5 at $25.00 apiece....soooo

Does anyone have any suggestions (BTW I'm not good at scratch building lol).

Also I asked on another section about using N Scale figures, I realize they will be a little short but would it really be noticable? I plan on doing full crew on deck