Calling all Fletcher-class (DD-445) fans

[snaphappy321]

Hi Again,
One more of Haggards sister's. I showed my father the Fletcher I was building he reminded me about my grand father working at the Boston Navy Yard (BNY) during WWII. He died shortly after I was born and I never got to know him. I went online and found out that 14 Fletcher's were built at BNY, 5 round and 9 square bridge, one of which was the USS Charrette that's a museum in Greece. So after I finish the Haggard I plan on building one of the round bridge Fletcher's that my grand father might have helped build.

Roger

[snaphappy321]

Sorry the picture was to big I had to shrink it, here is DD-561

And here is the best picture I have of the Haggard off of Point No Point Washington

DD555 USS Haggard damaged bejond repair 4-29-45.jpg (21.04 KiB) Viewed 2313 times

The Haggard after the kamikaze strike at Okinawa April 29, 1945

Well I think I finally got the hang of posting pictures. I will post some of my build soon.

Roger

[snaphappy321]

Me again, repairs being performed after kamikaze strike. One of the 5 inch barrells is in the way and I can't make out the aft 40 mount.

Haggard_DD555_02 under repair of starboard hull at Kerama Retto after 4-29-1945 Kamikaze attack.jpg (99 KiB) Viewed 2311 times

Thats it folks!!!!!!

Roger

[Rick E Davis]

Roger,

Here is an aerial view of HAGGARD from the stern quarter that may answer your question. She was completed as a standard ten 40-mm FLETCHER with seven single 20-mm guns and a Mk 4 radar. HAGGARD was one of the units built by Sea-Tac SB Corp. in Seattle. SeaTac built DD-554 through 568 and DD-799 through 804 (as Todd Pacific SB). The first two built by SeaTac ... FRANKS and HAGGARD ... had a "non-standard" tubs for the waist twin 40-mm mounts installed by PSNY (there were only three FLETCHERS with this tub style). They were fully circular in shape ... just like the forward tubs ... and extended past the deck edge instead of being squared off. You can see this in photos of these two destroyers. Eventually these "extensions" were squared off. Other than the waist tubs, HAGGARD should be similar in configuration to her sisters built at SeaTac. All SeaTac and PSNY built units with forward twin 40-mm mounts had round shaped tubs on the forward mounts.

[snaphappy321]

Hi Rick,
What an awesome photo!!!!!!!!! Thank you very much!!!!!!!! I thought I would never see a photo of the Haggard as you have just posted. I can�t thank you enough!!!!! I am one happy ship yard worker.

I think that I will start a build thread instead of just posting photo�s here and there.

Thanks Again!!!!

Roger DD-555

[radartec]

Rick, Thanks for the pictures of the Ingersoll,DD652. I'm currently finishing up the '52 version in 1/350.You mentioned you have several of the '50s pics.I can use all you care to send.

003-1.jpg (40.96 KiB) Viewed 2259 times

I do have a couple of pics from a guy that was on her then and one shows the surface search radar antenna that is either a SU-1 or SU-2 type,definately not a SR.If you look real close you can see on the pic that it is not solid but perferated.It was still on her when they installed the SPS6 in 1953. If I can figure out how to add pics,I'll send them aong.

[Rick E Davis]

A little mixing of definitions here and you may have brought something to my attention.

When I looked at the image of the AIR SEARCH radar (image 1) I thought it was a SR radar, but looking at another photo (image 2) taken a few days later and the one you posted, it appears to be a SC-(which dash is unknown?) radar. The SC-(?) radars had square corners and SRa and SRb radars had rounded corners, when I looked at the first image I thought they looked rounded to me, but the other images show that the corners are square. Also, normally the SC-(?) radar had an IFF antenna atop the array and this one doesn't. Many FLETCHERS retained the WWII era SC radar (of various "-" dashes) until newer SRa/SRb or SPS-6 radars were available.

As for the SURFACE SEARCH radar at the top of the mast, I have to admit I'm confused, is likely a SG or SU radar from post-war era. The photo of INGERSOLL (image 4) I have from 1956 looks like she still has a SG-1B/SU- radar that many FLETCHERS had before upgrading to the SPS-10 by 1956. From Friedman's Radar book, the versions of surface search radars used post war was quite fluid, with antennas being modified for existing radars. Unfortunately he doesn't provide photos of them. The SU series didn't get installed until post-WWII and were intended by the time of the Korean War to be replaced by the SPS-10, so which radar this one is is a question mark to me, but does look like a SU antenna shown in Friedman's book. My confusion comes from the labeled photos of the antennas installed on FLETCHERS that I'm finding at the National Archives. At the bottom are a series of four radars photos (images 5-8) from various FLETCHERS in 1954-56 that have labeled this radar as a "SG-1B". The first of these photos (image 5) looks like the WWII SG series of radars, but the other three are also labeled with "SG-1B" radars with various air search radars (image 6 w/a SC-4 radar, image 7 w/a SR radar, and image 8 w/a SPS-6C radar) look like the SU photo in Friedman's book. I'm puzzled ... either the labels are wrong or they used the same or similar antenna on both radars? Looks like I need to do some more digging ... sigh.

I'm not sure when they replaced the SG-1B/SU radar with the SPS-10 Surface Search Radar on INGERSOLL.

[radartec]

Rick,
Great research !I'll send along a pic of the SU-2. What is the story on the Nancy Lights??(color for P&S)

[Rick E Davis]

NANCY Beacons were/are IR lamps intended for "covert" communications between ships. Covert as long as the other guys "don't" have an IR camera. There were hand-held devices for seeing the signals and maybe mounted units as well. I'm not all that familiar with the equipment used and differences during late WWII and post-war. Finding detailed information on the development and specific installations on USN ships is difficult. It appears to me that the NANCY transmit beacons were first installed on the larger units (cruisers and bigger). I suspect the receivers were more widely distributed so that the escorts could see the transmissions. I find NANCY beacons in photos being installed on FLETCHERS post-war, I'm unsure about their installation during WWII. Some versions look so much like signal lamps, it is hard to tell.

Here is one of the few websites that discuss them:

.... http://www.navy-radio.com/flory/id24.html ....

[snaphappy321]

Hi Rick,
I have a question for you. I'm building the Lindberg Blue Devil. We all know about the kits short commings, but her's a picture of the midship and forward platform. The kit has these two decks comming togeather at the mast. I think this is another mistake with the kit, but the real ship has a lot going on in this area and I can't find a good picture to make the proper alteration. Here's a picture of the kit, any help you could give me on this would be greatly appreciated. Also I started a build thread you can check out what I've done so far.
Thanks Roger

[Rick E Davis]

Roger,

You are right that the "Blue Devil" is a mess. You are putting a lot of good work into trying to beautify a sow.

Here are a couple of images I cropped of this area I found on a couple of FLETCHERS. I tried to get views from a couple of different aspects. You can see that there were only a couple of short "bridges" between the deckhouses over the passageway between the two. Also. note the radio trunks. Getting views of this area on any destroyer is a pain. You need an overhead view from an almost precise angle or views without the boats in place. This seems to be the common method used for "mating the forward and midships deckhouses together. But, I at least one FLETCHER after the Anti-Kamikaze mod, where it looked like the midships deckhouse deck was carried forward all the way across wrapping around the mast (which continues down to the main deck). Also, post WWII it appears that a continuos deck was installed with the tripod mast ... but this is beyond your build of HAGGARD. I couldn't find similar views onboard HAGGARD or her SeaTac built sisters to see if they had any "unique" configuration for this "interface".

[snaphappy321]

Hi Rick,
Once again thank you very much I will put these photo,s to good use. A couple more things, you wouldn't happen to know of any photos of the Haggard docked in any port would you? I am about to scratch build the compartments that support the midship 40mm mounts. What size were they, in other words how much room was between them and the main midship cabin. I guess what I'm trying to figure outis how much room was there so the crew could travel between them?

Thanks Roger

[Cliffy B]

Hey Roger, if you're building as depicted in that photo above (Ms. 21 and 5 twin 40mms) than these plans should help you with the midships mounts and probably a lot more as well.

USS Sigsbee (DD-502) January 1944 (5 twin 40mms and 10 tubes)
http://www.hnsa.org/doc/plans/dd502.pdf

Look at pages 6 and 7. They're in 1/96 scale.

Hope that helps somewhat.

-Mike

[snaphappy321]

Hey Mike,
Thanks, I will take a look; I hope to build a Fletcher in 1/96 or 1/48 scale one day, but at the time that is out of my means due to being out of work. For now I'm just beautifying a sow as Rick put it (Lindberg Blue Devil). Although I like to think of it this way, I'm getting a lot of experience for my next build.

Thanks Again
Roger DD-555

[Rick E Davis]

Sorry, no photos of HAGGARD docked. I have a couple of photos of her anchored in the harbor away from any docks at PSNY when completed. You could look in Navsource for other FLETCHERS docked to get an idea.

You got your answer about the "clipping room/radar room" that the waist twin 40-mm mounts platform sat on. As an aside, there were a couple of different layouts of these small deckhouses. SIGSBEE's was one with a rectangular planform (common on early FLETCHERS first to have the waist twin 40-mm mounts installed) and another type had a forward end "tapered" planform (see below) ... common on Bath Iron Works and other East Coast built FLETCHERS (and most later built units) ... which was done to allow easier movement of torpedoes to the forward TT mount. This was an Engineering Change sent out to all builders, but depending on where a given builder was in building units, they may or may not have incorporated this change on a given destroyer. It is hard to tell from the few yard photos of SeaTac built FLETCHERS, but FRANKS (DD-554) looks to have the earlier "rectangular" deckhouse. For most kits, this doesn't matter all that much ... being that it is largely hidden by the 40-mm mount platform. I added a close-crop view of HAGGARD ... I can't tell ... she was one of the FLETCHERS that had a canvas "curtain" that could be used to block off the passageway ... and that thing blocks the view.

[snaphappy321]

Hi Rick,
Thanks for your help. How is it that you have so much knowledge on the Fletcher�s? Did you or a family member serve on one? After I beautify my sow (Lindberg Blue Devil) I would like to build one of the round bridge Fletcher�s possibly the Bennett after her emergency kamikaze refit. The Bennett came out of the Boston Navy Yard. My grand father was a ship fitter there during WWII and he might have helped build her along with everything else that was built at Boston.

Cheers!!!! Roger DD-555

[Rick E Davis]

As for my knowledge about FLETCHERS ... I have collected over 2800 images of FLETCHERS that I have scanned at National Archives, NHHC, from photos I bought from INRO and Our Navy magazine (LONG GONE), and a few photos I took at Philadelphia Navy Yard in 1972-73 over the last 40 years. I have also, been kindly provided with additional images that others have collected. More recently I have researched textual records at the National Archives trying to answer the "why" things were done on this class. Why I got hooked on FLETCHERS, really USN destroyers, I can't really answer. They just interested me and after I saw SIGSBEE (DD-502) at Philadelphia (one of the last FLETCHERS still in WWII rig in 1973 and I think the only one at Philadelphia) in May 1973, I wanted to know more. I'm still being surprised at what I find out ... I gave up believing I'll know everything about this class.

GUEST (DD-472) and BENNETT (DD-473) were key FLETCHERS in the evolution of the class ... being the prototypes for the waist twin 40-mm mounts installation. It wasn't as easy as slapping two mounts on the deck there.

[snaphappy321]

Hi Rick
Very interesting story, and being a new comer to the group I can say that were all very fortunate to have a person like yourself that is willing to share the knowledge that took you those many years to acquire.

I also am fortunate to have meet William Dunn and his fine work on another site that told me to check out this group. He said there were a few individuals that have a vast knowledge of the Fletcher class as well as any ship the USN has ever sailed.

I appreciate your help and I am very happy to have joined such a fine group.

Cheers!!!
Roger DD-555

[retiredyank]

My grandfather served on the DD Brown during WWII. His ship was part of the task force that entered Tokyo Bay with orders to shoot everything. I'm planning on building his ship. I believe he served the entire duration of the war on the Brown. Is Tamiya's 1:350 DD Fletcher an accurate representation of a WWII Fletcher Class Destroyer?

[Rick E Davis]

USS BROWN (DD-546) was a Revised Open (Square) Bridge version of the FLETCHER class. The Tamiya 1/350 scale FLETCHER kit represents the original Closed (Round) Bridge version of the class. So no the FLETCHER kit wouldn't be a good choice for USS BROWN. The Trumpeter THE SULLIVANS 1/350 scale kit with the five twin 40-mm mounts and seven 20-mm guns configuration option is a better choice. There are some issues with the Trumpeter kit to accurately represent USS BROWN. But, if your modeling skills are basic, building out of the box would be close.

If you have not seen it, here is a summary of BROWN's career ... http://www.history.navy.mil/danfs/b9/brown-i.htm ...