Calling all Fletcher-class (DD-445) fans

[bwross11]

Hey Rick,
Thanks for the response. It just so happens that I'm converting a Tamiya Fletcher into the Hazelwood to try and reproduce the picture you mentioned. I have pictures of the forward section, all from starboard wouldn't you know, but I've not been able to find a broader picture to see the k-guns and racks.

best,
Bruce

[sandy]

Hi,

Does anyone have photos or drawings showing the original and then modified rudder that was fitted to Fletchers after WW2?

Thanks in advance.

All the best
Sandy

[Rick E Davis]

I'm on the road and I don't have drawings available, but here are photos as best I can do right now.

Original Rudder:




Lengthened Rudder:

[sandy]

Thanks very much.

[sandy]

MULLANY was in the more or less "standard" five twin 40-mm mounts configuration when she was hit by Kamikaze aircraft. The differences would be related to the different ways that the builder did things like building bulwarks.

Hi Rick,

Would you be able to illustrate what the differences were on Bethlehem San Francisco ships?

All the best
Sandy

[Rick E Davis]

Sandy,

For what time frame and maybe which candidate units? Are you still looking at MULLANY or another sister?

I'm on the road and will be heading home tomorrow, so I won't be able to provide any help until Sunday or maybe not until Monday.


Rick

[Guest]

Hi new to ship model building.....have done some cars and custom action figures.......Want to build this ship 559 USS Longshaw (I've the same name:) ) http://www.navsource.org/archives/05/0555902.jpg
Any idea what the colours would be to paint this?.....I've found it hard to find any info and didn't want to trawl through 59 pages of posts. Any help would be appreciated.
Cheers

[Rick E Davis]

Go to this website for the info on the FLETCHER class Dazzle schemes .... http://usndazzle.com/1Web/FletchbyNos.html ...

The pattern is shown here along with the colors used ... http://usndazzle.com/1Web/Drawings/32-21Dwcap.html ...

[sandy]

Sandy,

For what time frame and maybe which candidate units? Are you still looking at MULLANY or another sister?

I'm on the road and will be heading home tomorrow, so I won't be able to provide any help until Sunday or maybe not until Monday.


Rick

Hello Rick,

My apologies, I have been away also and I am just back today.

Yes, I am still interested in the Mullany (and Bush and Ammen - the big bridge ships).

Thanks in advance.

All the best
Sandy

[Rick E Davis]

Sandy,

I'm still unclear of what period you want. It would take quite a bit of effort to document the changes to even just those three over their entire careers.

For these three destroyers, there are no drawings, I'm aware, of their "unique" ten 40-mm configuration(s), so some things would have to rely on photos and I have already posted about the best I have for these three.

If you want a breakdown of difference during WWII, I can try to make a listing.

[sandy]

Hi Rick,

Thanks for the reply and sorry if I am unclear. There was some mention earlier of Fletchers having differences between builders.

I am keen to build the Mullany as she was the day she was hit by the kamikaze (6th April, 1945).

I can 'do' the bridge from the photos that you provided, but I was curious as to what the little differences between builders were. My assumption was that there were slight variations, perhaps, in doors, location of some fittings, etc

I have a loan of the Anotomy book about The Sullivans and as it is a Bethlehem SF built ship I am hoping that it can provide a good reference for bits and pieces.

All the best
Sandy

[Rick E Davis]

Sandy,

Sorry for a delayed response. This has been a busy week and my allergies acted up with a bad sinus headache much of yesterday.

I'm not going to document ALL the differences between the eleven builders of FLETCHERS ... that would take too long and never be complete. Better to ask about specific units. As for MULLANY, she was more or less in the "standard" layout for a Bethlehem - SF built FLETCHER completed to the three twin 40-mm mounts configuration. MULLANY and her two sisters (AMMEN and BUSH) modified to the five twin 40-mm mounts configuration was as I have said, a unique configuration. The uniqueness for this upgrade is focused around the bridge area. MULLANY and BUSH were upgraded from the six 40mm configuration they were completed to, whereas AMMEN was completed to the two twin 40-mm mounts configuration with one mount on the fantail. Her upgrade to the ten 40-mm configuration involved more work and she had some unique features. I will concentrate on what MULLANY looked like in April 1945 after her overhaul in late 1944-early 1945.

You have views of MULLANY's bridge from January 1945 onwards already.

For the rest of the ship, look at the three photos of MULLANY and BUSH below. I have circled or placed arrows for different features, mostly focused on the spray shield bulwarks protecting the guns. The bulwark shapes were different between builders for a variety of reasons. The USN changed the "standard" design, particularly for the waist twin 40-mm installation, as experience was gained in the operation of the equipment. Also, some builders had their own ideas of how these should be done. MULLANY and BUSH had the "circular-shape" with the squared-off flush with the side of the ship shape that became the "standard" seen on most FLETCHERS. The bulwarks for the waist main deck 20-mm guns varied between two styles ... as a standalone structure with curved ends or what I call a "blended" bulwark where the forward end of the 20-mm bulwark was attached to the small deckhouse that the twin 40-mm mount's wing platform was installed on. Even then, the construction of these bulwarks varied between builders and yards doing repairs or modifications. I have put an arrow pointing to the style of 20-mm bulwarks that Bethlehem - SF installed.

In 1944 the USN started to double the number of 300-lb depth charges carried for the "K-Guns". These double reload racks were installed on MULLANY and BUSH. I have put arrows on the MULLANY image showing this mod.

Another feature installed on MULLANY at least, was installing a "drop-down" panel on the outboard bulwark of the waist twin 40-mm mounts. Depending on how much detail you want to add to your build, this may not matter.

MULLANY does have a feature that isn't often seen on FLETCHERS. Someone "requested" and/or "authorized" installation of an opening in the "teardrop" shaped bulwark around the aft twin 40-mm mount.

The attached image of the fantail area of BUSH shows the configuration of the bulwark surrounding the three single 20-mm guns on the fantail. This was the bulwark configuration for both BUSH and MULLANY.

Finally, in late 1944 the USN started to replace the smoke generating tanks with a below deck generator system. The BUSH photo taken in June 1944 shows the tanks, MULLANY would have had these replaced with the new smoke-generating system. I can't find a good view of this installation on MULLANY, but I have views of installation on other FLETCHERS. See the last image.

Check other photos available at Navsource for location and type of things like the floater net baskets on MULLANY.

Now then, depending on which FLETCHER kit you start with (maker and scale) and how much modification to the kit you want to make, will determine the work involved. Most kits for a large class like the FLETCHERS are a "compromise" of various features seen on several units in the class. So, to have a model that will be completely accurate will require additional work. It is up to you as to how much effort to put in your build and still enjoy the effort.

DD-528 MULLANY on 9 January 1945


DD-529 BUSH on 16 June 1944


DD-528 MULLANY aft twin 40-mm mount bulwark


A typical installation of the new smoke generating system

[sandy]

Thank you once more, Rick.

That all seems clear, although you passed a tantalising comment about the USS Ammen and unique features.

My aim is still to do Mullany in 48th scale, R/C.

Just a couple of points raised by your reply:-

How much of the twin 40mm outer bulkhead dropped down? The whole length or just the centre section ? I have trawled as many pictures of Fletchers I can find and cna't find one (as yet) showing those bulkheads down to get an idea. I assume they were dropped in action to allow depression of the 40mms?

Regarding the photo of the Bush that you posted showing the 20mm arrangement on the quarterdeck and the view of the Mullany with the depth charge racks, am I right in saying that the 20mm bulkhead closest to 55 mount has some sort of rounded, semi semi circular raised bit in the centre and, in fact, from about halfway around the curved sections at the forward end the bulkhead rises slightly before merging with this raised bit.





All the best
Sandy

[Rick E Davis]

Sandy,

Look at the earlier overhead view of AMMEN in mothballs. When they upgraded her to ten 40-mm guns, they left the waist 20-mm guns in the original location amidships and didn't relocate them further forward to the new "standard" locations. There were other small differences plus the different venture used on the bridge front. In general since AMMEN started out in the two twin 40-mm mount configuration (with one on the fantail) it is surprising that she was as common to her sister as she was. But she was upgraded by her original builder, so they would have modified most configuration items the the same as done on all their FLETCHERS they built. But, you ARE doing the MULLANY.

On the few ships I have noted the drop down panel, it appears to extend for the entire length of the "flat" section. The drop down had as much to do for gun crew safety as gun depression. The area between the bulwark and the twin 40-mm mount was a "trap" for crew not paying close attention. Dropping the bulwark gave them a "small" escape route from the rotating mount. There were chains attached to the panel so that it didn't drop down all the way to the side of the ship. Sometimes I see it "open" to about a 45 degree angle, sometimes down to 90 degrees.

The raised semi-circle to the bulwark around the fantail 20-mm guns was a unique feature of Bethlehem-SF built units. I assume they thought of it as a "blast" shield, but it wouldn't have been of much use for that purpose against the 5-in gun. Sometimes it got removed during refits, but didn't for either of these ships. The bulwark height on the onboard sides was cutdown starting late in 1944 for a number of reasons. The "lighter-weight" tripod Mk 10 mounts for the 20-mm guns (you can see in the MULLANY photos that Mk 10 mounts were installed) didn't have an elevation jack and were fixed in height. By cutting down the bulwark they could depress the guns. Also, actions in the Philippines against suicide boats showed a need to lower depression angle more than was needed against aircraft. Normally the bulwark for only the two onboard 20-mm guns on the fantail and maybe the waist 20-mm guns as well, were cutdown. It does not appear that the waist bulwarks needed to be cutdown on MULLANY.

[sandy]

Many thanks again, Rick.

I have hunted all the sources of photos I can find and cannot track down a picture of the 40mm tubs with the sides down.

Do you have any you could post ?

It would appear that the Bethlehem SF ships had a very circular 40mm tub that appears, in comparison with other yard ships, to be smaller, and so you can see more of the roof of the clipping shack fore and aft.

All the best
Sandy

[Rick E Davis]

This is a view of "one" method used to hinge the bulwark. This photo is from a series taken of USS SHIELDS (DD-596) as she was being completed by Puget Sound Navy Yard. I won't swear that this is the same way as MULLANY was modified, I have seen other methods used to hold the "hinged" section in place. But SHIELDS has the style of waist twin 40-mm bulwarks that MULLANY had (this style was used on more Square-bridge FLETCHERS than all the other styles). And yes this style of "Tub" was a tight fit for a gun crew of 10-12 to work the mount and provide reload clips.

It is pretty simple ... hinge at bottom, it tills out, and is restrained from falling all the way down to the side of the ship. You seldom see this "flap" out.

[jepot]

After almost a full day of reading all 60 pages of this wonderful thread i can post my question...

im tasked to build a USS CONY (DD508) as a gift of a friend to his father; what i have here is a 1/350 scale trumpy which is a square bridge as compared to a cony round bridge, but considering there is a tarp/ roof of sorts over the pilot house area, this can be addressed; now i have to modify this greatly so it seems ( as what a comment of sundowner said here: viewtopic.php?f=59&t=75900&p=411614&hil ... ny#p411614 ); and after looking through these 60 pages, most of the discussions were about WW2 Fletchers; all i could find in refernce close enough to my project of a cold war era Fletcher example is a post at page 32 by Hanchang Kuo where he made a 1/700 scale USS Taylor. In reference to pics i got of the Cony:


uhh the blue arrow- is there another torpedo tube at the starboard side?
the thick red arrow- the twin 3"50 is located more at port- what is at the starboard side?
the thin red arrow- what is this, a fire control radar?

can scratchbuilding address these objects? anyone? other than said questions it seems i have a lot of filling of holes on the deck of my trumpy and reconstructing areas of the superstructure; thanks in advance and really, what a wonderful thread about the Fletchers all have contributed to here, specially Rick E Davis!!

[sandy]

Hello Rick,

Thanks once again. Interesting picture. Based on the photos of the Mullany and the location of the three hinges (near the centre of the bulhead) I sort of assumed only a centre section folded down. My plan is still for the Mullany on the afternoon of 6th April, 1945 so these bulkheads would be down. It is a twist of fate that Mullany and Bush were both hit by kamikazes at almost exactly the same time on the afternoon of 6th April, the Bush for the third (and fatal) time that day while on radar picket duty and the Mullany for the first (and luckily only) time while on anti submarine patrol. Both destroyers were also abandoned at almost exactly the same time an hour later, the Bush to sink and the Mullany only temporarily before being reboarded when fires had been successfuly fought.

I most probably will this week place my order for the hull and fittings for the Mullany, so it looks as though it will happen .... so there may be even more questions

You posted these pictures early on in my questions. They are on Navsource but do you have larger, clearer, uncropped examples you could email me or post up here please. They look like having a lots of detail information.





All the best
Sandy

[Rick E Davis]

Sandy,

PM me with your E-Mail address. Or you can try the E-Mail link, I never seem to get anyone with that option.

[Rick E Davis]

Jetpot,

Sorry I missed your post earlier.

As for CONY (DDE-508), I have a couple of questions, when did your friend's father serve on CONY? As with most ships, the configuration changed over time of service. I have some images of CONY and sisters from the 1950-60s. The image you posted is most likely from the mid-1960s.

First off if you are really interested in scratch-building this model, it is fine to use the Trumpeter 1/350 scale THE SULLIVANS kit for "some" of your build (particularly if you desire a waterline version), but I would suggest for CONY to either start with the Tamiya 1/350 scale FLETCHER kit which has the proper bridge type or to "Kit-Bash" the two kits and use parts from both. Taking the bridge from the Tamiya kit and adding it to the Trumpeter kit would get you to the starting point. The bridge will still need to be modified, but starting with the "round bridge" will be much easier than trying to making a round-bridge from a square bridge.

The big hurdles you will have are in the equipment changes seen on the DDE version of the FLETCHER. The DDEs had two twin 3-in Rapid Fire Gun mounts, a Mk 56 Gun Fire Control System, a Mk 108 ASW rocket launcher (forward of the bridge), two hedgehog ASW projectors (port/starboard forward of the bridge) and depending on timeframe two triple Mk 32 ASW Torpedo Tube mounts. None of the listed items are available in any "plastic" 1/350 scale FLETCHER kit that I'm aware of. Finding all of these items as after after-market may be tricky.

The aft deckhouse area on the DDEs was a complete rebuild from the original FLETCHER deckhouses. I would have to find some drawings to show the differences.

Another possibility would be for you to get a resin model of a 1950's DDE and modify that kit as needed depending on the timeframe of your build. Ironshipwrights is the only firm I know of that currently has this kit. The price for this resin kit is more than for the base ship kit in plastic, but you will get almost EVERYTHING you need for the build in one kit. If nothing else, this link shows you the parts involved with this version of the FLETCHER class ... http://ironshipwrights.com/pages/Renshaw.html ... and the general layout.

As for your specific questions;
The Blue arrow is pointing to the starboard triple Mk 32 ASW TT mount ... there were two installed (one port/one starboard) from about 1962 onward.
The Thick Red arrow is that "stuff was there" ... "See attached image" of CONY in 1957 ... may have changed somewhat in the year you are modeling. See attached.
The thin Red arrow is the Mk 56 GFCS See attached.